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Any "true crime" sleuths here?

[views:63002][posts:179]
 ___________________________________
[Apr 30,2016 2:59am - susurrate ""]
Interesting case. Bothersome, even. In our neck of the woods, so due to the local nature, figure I'd post it here to see what people think.

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com

https://www.reddit.com/r/mauramurray/



Part 1/5 - I'll let you dicks find the other 4 parts
 _____________________________________
[Apr 30,2016 8:06am - MattGemini  ""]
I commit true crime everyday
 ________________________________
[Apr 30,2016 10:16am - Hoser ""]
We need more people that are into this stuff. Anything helps. People are still looking for Tammy Belanger as well. She disappeared from Exeter back in 1984 and her body has still not been found.
 _______________________________________
[Apr 30,2016 10:34am - the_reverend ""]
Something recently had me reading about this.
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[Apr 30,2016 10:36am - the_reverend ""]
http://text.rttp.us/forum.php?id=89403

That thread
 _____________________________________
[Apr 30,2016 11:12am - MotleyGrue ""]
People go missing for lots of different reasons, sometimes to just start a new life, possible slavery. What is interesting is college age males disappear without a trace, police and volunteers will search the area for days, and when the body turns up it is usually near a body of water that had been searched already. In some cases they have been missing for days/weeks but when an autopsy is done it shows they are recently deceased. This happens on a global scale with similar circumstances.
 ____________________________________
[Apr 30,2016 11:40am - Dead guy  ""]
Weird case but she probably died of exposure. Hunter will find her bones. Happened here recently http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/201...skull_found_in_upton_identifie.html
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[Apr 30,2016 6:38pm - the_reverend ""]
Yeah, there is a lot of wilderness and animals are hungry
 _____________________________________
[Apr 30,2016 10:24pm - MotleyGrue ""]

bennyhillifier
 _______________________________________
[Apr 30,2016 10:34pm - Tree & Rope  ""]
It's either blacks or Dwyer.
 ____________________________________
[Apr 30,2016 11:26pm - susurrate ""]

MotleyGrue said:
bennyhillifier



will watch tomorrow
 ___________________________________
[May 1,2016 10:21pm - Dead guy  ""]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_disappeared_mysteriously
 ___________________________________
[May 4,2016 5:00pm - MotleyGrue ""]
This is interesting.


bennyhillifier
 __________________________________
[May 4,2016 5:48pm - susurrate ""]

MotleyGrue said:This is interesting.


bennyhillifier



that's pretty bizarre and chilling. some of the sounds at the beginning of the actual voicemail-the gurgly ones reminded me of when i saw a particular video 10 years or so ago of these chechen rebels slicing the throat of an enemy. the gurgling in the voicemail reminded me of the trying to breath while choking on blood signature sound. but apparently he was found in a body of water so that doesn't seem probable as they claim it was most likely death by drowning. i wonder if those sounds can be mimicked by placing a cell phone inches above the water while a subject is screaming underwater trying to be let go/breath. no clue. i'm going to look more into this case later.

edit: since he was a pretty well known auditor in his area, i don't think it's much of a mystery that he discovered some ill-kept books and some people didn't want that information to get out.
 ___________________________________
[May 4,2016 6:09pm - MotleyGrue ""]
I just stumbled upon this just a few hours ago, haven't found the full voicemail to listen to it in it's entirety. He disappeared on September 7th, found on November 2nd, he is missing for 2 months, found with high levels of GHB which is common with missing bodies that turn up in floaters. I agree it could be anything, but has the stereotypical details of huge number of missing person cases whose bodies are eventually recovered. Person who leaves a party or night out, asks to get dropped off or walks home alone making them a victim to be captured. At a certain point you have to ask yourself is this all just a coincidence, or something weird/sinister happening?
 __________________________________
[May 4,2016 6:18pm - susurrate ""]
ohhh right the GHB. i heard that in the clip you posted. i thought that stuff went out of style in the late 90s.
i'd prefer it to be something sinister.
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[May 4,2016 7:11pm - susurrate ""]
thanks for posting the david paulides thing because i had no clue as to who he was, but now i am very interested in getting a copy of his book(s). excellent reads for the shitter i am sure.

http://www.canammissing.com/missing_411.html
 ____________________________________
[May 4,2016 11:17pm - MotleyGrue ""]
Oh that's right, thanks for posting, I heard you ran down your mothers leg, guess I was wrong, your dad should have pulled out, the dumb bastard.
 ____________________________________
[May 4,2016 11:20pm - MotleyGrue ""]
Not being a dick though, there is a lot of fucked up shit that goes on there in real life, just saying.
 ________________________________________
[May 4,2016 11:23pm - susurrate nli  ""]
not sure if you misinterpreted, i actually do 95% of my reading on the shitter. did not mean anything negative by it.
 ___________________________________
[May 5,2016 10:42am - susurrate ""]
this ones always bugged me. the elevator footage is creepy as shit. ending up in a rooftop water tank whether self inflicted or not is even creepier. and also lol @ the people who were staying at the hotel who were drinking and bathing in female corpse water.


[img]

http://www.vice.com/read/elisa-lam-drowned...session-with-her-death-lives-on-511

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elisa_Lam
 ___________________________________
[May 5,2016 4:14pm - MotleyGrue ""]
Such a fucked story about her, too many weird things, first the Cecil Hotel had two different serial killers living there at different points in time, people have been murdered and have committed suicide there. There was something locked up on the roof to which she did not have the key, it took four fireman to open the water lid as it is too heavy, how did she open it? There is a semi non existent company called The Light Agency (?) based in the Cecil hotel which is very interesting, and should be looked into further.

LAM-ELISA Is a Tuberculosis Diagnosis test that was developed in British Columbia, the same place she was currently going to school, what are the odds of the name similarity and location?

There was a Tuberculosis outbreak among homeless people in LA around this time, the CDC sent scientists/dr.'s to use the LAM-ELISA test on the infected, again what are the odds?

If she is South Korean it would make things even more suspect.
 __________________________________
[May 5,2016 4:53pm - susurrate ""]
one of the most bizarre ones out there, guaranteed.

not to mention that (largely terrible) movie Dark Water released in 2005. One of the main characters was named Ceci. and it involved a dead girl in a rooftop water tank that haunted the place.

the degrees of separation in all these things is fucked. sure we can make parallels anywhere with anything, but these are too odd to ignore.
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[May 5,2016 6:45pm - MotleyGrue ""]
Dark Waters is a terrible movie, just adds more to the mystery of her death.

I read about this somewhere a few months back, this happened in NH.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/11/09/thirty-years-later-murders-woman-girls-continues-baffle/I7n4d1NKACqfFhnIwAnVVP/story.html
 __________________________________
[May 5,2016 7:08pm - susurrate ""]
always trips me out how dark water came out yeeeaaaars before her demise.

man that NH story is really fucked up. a little distant to be the 'ct river valley killer' or whatever he/she is called, but i'm going to look into that one a bit more.

love how the kids were just rolling the barrel around like a game of super nes donkey kong country and then bam
 ___________________________________
[May 6,2016 7:32pm - MotleyGrue ""]
And old favorite of mine Nico Claux, and in the very late 90's I did consider sending him a picture to commission him to paint a portrait of me.

http://www.lesvampires.org/mirrorsportal/nicoclaux.html

http://www.hyaenagallery.com/nicoclaux.html
 _____________________________________________________________
[May 6,2016 9:11pm - Losing faith in humanity chapter 56  ""]

MotleyGrue said:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/11/09/thirty-years-later-murders-woman-girls-continues-baffle/I7n4d1NKACqfFhnIwAnVVP/story.html



WTF
 __________________________________
[May 6,2016 9:44pm - susurrate ""]
[img]

^ possible, not official, photo of Tara Calico.


[img]

Regina Kay Walters ^


being kvlt and all that bullshit is one thing, but being a true psychopath piece of shit is another.

not to derail the commentary, but seeing Macabre was the best show I've been to so....



bennyhillifier




bennyhillifier
 ____________________________________
[May 7,2016 12:56am - MotleyGrue ""]
I have seen several last pictures of victims, but am suspect of them. Never a fan of Macabre fuck them, don't mean to be a feelings hurter about it.
 __________________________________
[May 7,2016 2:59pm - susurrate ""]
if peoples feelings get hurt about someone not liking a band that they do, then that's pretty weak. no butthurt here.
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[May 7,2016 3:22pm - MotleyGrue ""]
I have known about Macabre for a long fucking time, knew what they were about, tried to like them, just didn't work for me, which is cool to each his own.

Don't want to take away from the thread about murder, unsolved crimes, always seems to fascinate me, just like the weird, strange, unexplained, paranormal, ufo, urban legend bullshit, I cant get enough.
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[May 7,2016 3:57pm - susurrate ""]
agreed. we'll keep the thread going. people disappear every day.
 _______________________________________
[May 8,2016 12:20am - skeletonized  ""]
worth reading if you guys like the above posts: http://www.amazon.com/Faithful-Executioner...ent-Sixteenth-Century/dp/1250043611

insane descriptions of what kind of crimes were committed back in ye olden days. ex - bandits would kill an entire family/burn their house, but not before cutting off the hands of babies which were good luck back then. lots of raping, random murders for shitty/bizarre reasons, arson, all of which were often never solved. had to have some pretty epic public exeuctions to make people feel safe.
 ____________________________________
[May 8,2016 11:06am - MotleyGrue ""]
Sounds like a good read.
 __________________________________
[May 8,2016 2:31pm - susurrate ""]

bennyhillifier

shit quality, should be on netflix however.

my opinion on this is drug deal gone wrong. no one carries 32,000 dollars in a box underneath a vehicle seat even if you're going to "look for land to purchase" in some random mountain area. plus, the situation with the aryan dude is straight up 'well- i just got chased away with a gun, so i'll have my boys take care of them.'

continuing the last known photo's deal, this one is bone chilling to me. smile looks totally faked (when compared to previous photos os the subject smiling)- looks like she's in fear (in my opinion) and the fact that she's looking away from the camera leads me to believe that someone *could have* taken that photo while the subjects parents were off to the side being incapacitated by someone or many someones. bold thought, but it could happen. what do i know.


[img]
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[May 8,2016 2:37pm - ipfreely ""]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bella_Bond_murder_case
 __________________________________
[May 8,2016 3:20pm - susurrate ""]

ipfreely said:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bella_Bond_murder_case


sad one. more parents that should have been chemically sterilized prior to conceiving a child.
 __________________________________
[May 15,2016 2:10pm - ipfreely ""]
Not sure if this is related to this thread but this is brutal and recent:

http://abc7.com/news/exclusive-father-spea...-who-was-found-decapitated/1338669/
 ___________________________________
[May 15,2016 3:21pm - susurrate ""]
decapitation is not easy, even with a surgical blade when done by hand according to things i've read. someone had to really want that to make it happen. that is very weird. i'll try and keep tabs on the case here and there cause damn that's odd.
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[May 24,2016 7:26pm - ipfreely ""]
This is interesting:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mysterious-let...dles-interest-in-1977-missing-case/
 ___________________________________
[May 24,2016 8:13pm - susurrate ""]

ipfreely said:This is interesting:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mysterious-let...dles-interest-in-1977-missing-case/



whoa. 9/10 times this proves to be in-real-life trolling, but it would be great if it wasn't.

 _________________________________
[May 25,2016 1:48pm - rotted  ""]
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/05/2...s/KAcHuKSdYVHNTNu0qQobvK/story.html

o_o
 _____________________________________
[May 25,2016 11:30pm - MotleyGrue ""]

ipfreely said:Not sure if this is related to this thread but this is brutal and recent:

http://abc7.com/news/exclusive-father-spea...-who-was-found-decapitated/1338669/



Cult killing IMO, Texas, Drug Cartels, Santa Muerte, Satanists, Sociopaths. Could be wrong but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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[May 27,2016 3:51pm - This just in  ""]
http://www.people.com/article/pearl-pinson-missing-fernando-castro-dead
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[May 27,2016 4:49pm - susurrate ""]
unbelievable. that's sad. what's up with dudes by the name of castro fucking up women's lives? (ariel castro comes to mind)
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[May 27,2016 8:06pm - NH detective  ""]
Nathaniel Kibby pleads guilty in NH kidnapping case:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/27/us/kibby-guilty-plea-new-hampshire/index.html
 ____________________________________
[May 28,2016 1:08am - MotleyGrue ""]
Suck on this, dead alien human hybrid (supposedly) mystery.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/d...tified-part-alien-article-1.2301594
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[Jun 1,2016 2:46pm - susurrate ""]
what's up with people in the south? i buy something from someone and they say it's a time capsule, i'm opening that shit the second they leave my house even if they said not to. this is one of the weirdest stories as of late.

http://wncn.com/2016/05/31/dead-body-was-f...in-freezer-in-goldsboro-woman-says/
 ____________________________________
[Jun 1,2016 11:06pm - MotleyGrue ""]
She sold me her frozen mother for $30, sounds like a steal for aged meat, what is she bitching about???
 __________________________________
[Jun 9,2016 10:19am - ipfreely ""]
Local. Seems like a code of silence at this school.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/06/09/police-commissioner-evans-rebukes-students-for-not-helping-solve-slaying-classmate-near-high-school/26zm2gHoTZrXrkrLafs4OK/story.html
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[Jul 10,2016 4:23pm - MotleyGrue ""]
bumped, any new stories?
 ___________________________________
[Jul 10,2016 5:08pm - susurrate ""]
nothing particularly new, but the maura murray case is progressing as usual. new information every day. i'd suggest you check out the book that james renner recently released about it and himself, entitled "true crime addict". it's an easy read and compelling as hell. besides my focus on that, i've been increasingly interested in the story of Bryce Laspisa, Robert Hoagland (watch the robert hoagland episode of Disappeared, seriously.) and the old tale of the blues guitarist who disappeared without a trace, Mr. John Spira.
 _____________________________
[Jul 10,2016 5:57pm -  ""]
My Friend Rockefeller documentary on netflix is worth a look. What a fucking weird dude.
 ______________________________________
[Jul 13,2016 1:32pm - parachutist  ""]
FBI ends search for DB Cooper: http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/c...bi-no-longer-looking-for-db-cooper/

 ___________________________________
[Jul 23,2016 3:02pm - susurrate ""]

MotleyGrue said:
bennyhillifier



this is pretty nuts. forgot to respond after listening. been checking out david and the missing 411 stuff since. i understand his theories on sasquatch are pretty out there, but i saw something once with another witness by my side that can corroborate, and i can truly say that there's some bizarre stuff going on in the outer reaches of the woods regardless of trolls on the internet or detractors in real life.
 ____________________________________
[Jul 23,2016 3:37pm - MotleyGrue ""]
As far as the people that go missing, I like that he just presents the facts, and doesn't give you his opinion. Haven't listened too much about his bigfoot stories though, so what did you and the other witness see?
 ___________________________________
[Jul 23,2016 3:52pm - susurrate ""]
oh man. so i was probably 20. drove my girlfriend home to her house which was located alongside a patch of woods that was bridged between a local mountain range and a very rural area. behind her house was a patch of woods that led to one of those big fields with radio antennas and beyond that, a few suburban houses, leading to more woods that goes on for a long while. we pull into her dirt driveway in my truck and are talking for a minute, saying our goodbyes and what-have-you, all the while my headlights are pointed straight toward the woods (and closer to us- the end of her driveway where there are trash receptacles). to our left was a small patch of woods with a mountain stream that flows downward toward the back of the property, and a house beyond that stream to the left on a different plot. we are just talking and kinda looking straight ahead cause i felt like going home and wanted to end the night and in the blink of an eye, something tall (that was more than likely taller than my '98 dodge ram sport that had a 3" lift on it) passed from right to left, from where the trash cans were located, toward the stream. and i mean fast. like, 2 seconds from when we saw it to where it was out of view. (remember, it's pitch black out- i'd estimate 11pm). i'd think it took maybe 2 steps in our view before it entered and exited our view from the headlights. but the kicker is- we both saw an upright bi-pedal creature hauling ASS. i'd estimate 7 to 8 feet tall considering where the roof of my truck was, but it was awhile ago. all i can tell was it looked far too natural and mangey to be a suit, and it's not a spot where people hunt whatsoever.

funniest part was i basically told her to get in the house, she jumped out of the truck, dropped her samsung phone on the way out trying to run, and dropped the phone beneath the truck. hate to sound like a dick (but i was 20) and i offered no help whatsoever. i was not moving from my seat. she grabbed the phone and got inside safely. the door was probably 40 feet away.

to this day, with all honesty, i've never been so scared. i wasn't moving a muscle. i threw it in reverse and got out of dodge as fast as i could as soon as i saw she made it inside. i also have a UFO story, but that's for another time.

that chick ended up being a mental case as we progressed in our relationship and i dumped her after 3 years. best choice i ever made so far in life. but even though she sucks, she's still my corroborating witness. i reported it to a cryptozoology group about 6 months later.
 ___________________________________
[Jul 23,2016 3:54pm - susurrate ""]
i forgot to mention. whatever this 'thing' was, was no further than 20 feet from us MAX. i'd like to think it was closer, but i don't want to embellish anything because i'm serious about this. everyone close to me has heard this story. is what it is.

edit: before anyone calls bear or moose...no way. i've done wildlife tracking and game cameras for years. not a chance. i know what an upright bear looks like.
 __________________________________________
[Jul 23,2016 5:57pm - The Yellow King  ""]

susurrate said:oh man. so i was probably 20. drove my girlfriend home to her house which was located alongside a patch of woods that was bridged between a local mountain range and a very rural area. behind her house was a patch of woods that led to one of those big fields with radio antennas and beyond that, a few suburban houses, leading to more woods that goes on for a long while. we pull into her dirt driveway in my truck and are talking for a minute, saying our goodbyes and what-have-you, all the while my headlights are pointed straight toward the woods (and closer to us- the end of her driveway where there are trash receptacles). to our left was a small patch of woods with a mountain stream that flows downward toward the back of the property, and a house beyond that stream to the left on a different plot. we are just talking and kinda looking straight ahead cause i felt like going home and wanted to end the night and in the blink of an eye, something tall (that was more than likely taller than my '98 dodge ram sport that had a 3" lift on it) passed from right to left, from where the trash cans were located, toward the stream. and i mean fast. like, 2 seconds from when we saw it to where it was out of view. (remember, it's pitch black out- i'd estimate 11pm). i'd think it took maybe 2 steps in our view before it entered and exited our view from the headlights. but the kicker is- we both saw an upright bi-pedal creature hauling ASS. i'd estimate 7 to 8 feet tall considering where the roof of my truck was, but it was awhile ago. all i can tell was it looked far too natural and mangey to be a suit, and it's not a spot where people hunt whatsoever.

funniest part was i basically told her to get in the house, she jumped out of the truck, dropped her samsung phone on the way out trying to run, and dropped the phone beneath the truck. hate to sound like a dick (but i was 20) and i offered no help whatsoever. i was not moving from my seat. she grabbed the phone and got inside safely. the door was probably 40 feet away.

to this day, with all honesty, i've never been so scared. i wasn't moving a muscle. i threw it in reverse and got out of dodge as fast as i could as soon as i saw she made it inside. i also have a UFO story, but that's for another time.

that chick ended up being a mental case as we progressed in our relationship and i dumped her after 3 years. best choice i ever made so far in life. but even though she sucks, she's still my corroborating witness. i reported it to a cryptozoology group about 6 months later.



^^^^^^^^ susurrate is aril^^^^^^^^^
 ___________________________________
[Jul 23,2016 5:59pm - susurrate ""]

The%20Yellow%20King said:
susurrate said:oh man. so i was probably 20. drove my girlfriend home to her house which was located alongside a patch of woods that was bridged between a local mountain range and a very rural area. behind her house was a patch of woods that led to one of those big fields with radio antennas and beyond that, a few suburban houses, leading to more woods that goes on for a long while. we pull into her dirt driveway in my truck and are talking for a minute, saying our goodbyes and what-have-you, all the while my headlights are pointed straight toward the woods (and closer to us- the end of her driveway where there are trash receptacles). to our left was a small patch of woods with a mountain stream that flows downward toward the back of the property, and a house beyond that stream to the left on a different plot. we are just talking and kinda looking straight ahead cause i felt like going home and wanted to end the night and in the blink of an eye, something tall (that was more than likely taller than my '98 dodge ram sport that had a 3" lift on it) passed from right to left, from where the trash cans were located, toward the stream. and i mean fast. like, 2 seconds from when we saw it to where it was out of view. (remember, it's pitch black out- i'd estimate 11pm). i'd think it took maybe 2 steps in our view before it entered and exited our view from the headlights. but the kicker is- we both saw an upright bi-pedal creature hauling ASS. i'd estimate 7 to 8 feet tall considering where the roof of my truck was, but it was awhile ago. all i can tell was it looked far too natural and mangey to be a suit, and it's not a spot where people hunt whatsoever.

funniest part was i basically told her to get in the house, she jumped out of the truck, dropped her samsung phone on the way out trying to run, and dropped the phone beneath the truck. hate to sound like a dick (but i was 20) and i offered no help whatsoever. i was not moving from my seat. she grabbed the phone and got inside safely. the door was probably 40 feet away.

to this day, with all honesty, i've never been so scared. i wasn't moving a muscle. i threw it in reverse and got out of dodge as fast as i could as soon as i saw she made it inside. i also have a UFO story, but that's for another time.

that chick ended up being a mental case as we progressed in our relationship and i dumped her after 3 years. best choice i ever made so far in life. but even though she sucks, she's still my corroborating witness. i reported it to a cryptozoology group about 6 months later.



^^^^^^^^ susurrate is aril^^^^^^^^^




you'd think, but you're wrong. every time one of you think that, it makes me chuckle a bit. i like aril. but i am not aril. blank
 ___________________________________
[Jul 23,2016 6:39pm - susurrate ""]
just make sure you get your smores and popcorn out for my UFO story cause it still stresses me out to this day
 ________________________________________
[Jul 24,2016 1:56pm - Fjebdjdvdisgs  ""]
Cyvuvihihtxeyzrxyggugidofohigydrstfugi
 __________________________________
[Jul 24,2016 6:28pm - ipfreely ""]
Bizarre....A mass grave of 11 "escorts", one of them a missing daughter, a mother dead and another daughter charged with murder.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/24/mom-g...nd-dead-other-daughter-charged.html
 _________________________________
[Jul 25,2016 8:58am - wow ok  ""]

ipfreely said:Bizarre....A mass grave of 11 "escorts", one of them a missing daughter, a mother dead and another daughter charged with murder.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/24/mom-g...nd-dead-other-daughter-charged.html



high quality genes in that family.
 _____________________________________
[Aug 10,2016 11:14pm - MotleyGrue ""]
Don't know how this went under the radar for me, but just listened/read up about it tonight, and it's kinda fucked, need to spend more time reading up about this. Johnny Gosch the first missing kid to go on milk cartons, and a hellova crazy story. Coast To Coast just covered this a few days ago.

https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/The-Tragedy-Of-Johnny-Gosch
 ____________________________________
[Aug 11,2016 10:11am - susurrate ""]

MotleyGrue said:Don't know how this went under the radar for me, but just listened/read up about it tonight, and it's kinda fucked, need to spend more time reading up about this. Johnny Gosch the first missing kid to go on milk cartons, and a hellova crazy story. Coast To Coast just covered this a few days ago.

https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/The-Tragedy-Of-Johnny-Gosch



Dude. nothing is crazier than that story. People believe he was abducted and enslaved into sexual slavery by high ranking government officials operating a pedophile ring. Some even think he's still alive and is Jeff Gannon of all people. Huge rabbit-hole potential when looking into this particular case. Creepy as shit no matter which route it takes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/3akjak/do_you_believe_that_jeff_gannon_is_johnny_gosch/
 ____________________________________
[Aug 11,2016 10:13am - susurrate ""]

MotleyGrue said:Don't know how this went under the radar for me, but just listened/read up about it tonight, and it's kinda fucked, need to spend more time reading up about this. Johnny Gosch the first missing kid to go on milk cartons, and a hellova crazy story. Coast To Coast just covered this a few days ago.

https://owlcation.com/social-sciences/The-Tragedy-Of-Johnny-Gosch



Dude. nothing is crazier than that story. People believe he was abducted and enslaved into sexual slavery by high ranking government officials operating a pedophile ring. Some even think he's still alive and is Jeff Gannon of all people. Huge rabbit-hole potential when looking into this particular case. Creepy as shit no matter which route it takes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/3akjak/do_you_believe_that_jeff_gannon_is_johnny_gosch/
 ____________________________________
[Aug 11,2016 5:34pm - MotleyGrue ""]
That whole story is fucked
 ___________________________________
[Aug 11,2016 7:08pm - susurrate ""]

MotleyGrue said:That whole story is fucked


there's nothing remotely normal about it. makes you wonder what kind of people and factions actually exist outside of the improbable terrors that we create in our imaginations to subconsciously influence a dream.
 ___________________________________
[Aug 16,2016 4:19pm - susurrate ""]
Sir of Grue, have you followed the Vanessa Marcotte story out in Princeton, MA? Grisly stuff man. Attacked, possibly sexually assaulted, murdered, and set aflame. Hope they find the dirtbag. Any time a murderer sets someone on fire in a possible feeble attempt to remove DNA, you know they've been coldly calculating this type of thing for awhile. Fucked up.
 __________________________________
[Aug 16,2016 5:43pm - posbleak ""]
Dunno about you guys but I can't wait for Dr Phil to interview Jon Benet's brother in September
 ___________________________________
[Aug 16,2016 5:48pm - susurrate ""]
i'm over that whole deal. family is guilty as sin. i'll watch it but i'm sure it will be a puff piece w/ about 5% tension for the cameras. i'd utter the expected phrase, but i'll leave it up to aril.
 ____________________________________
[Aug 16,2016 7:43pm - MotleyGrue ""]
What made it interesting for me is one week before a female jogger was killed in the same fashion, too early to rule out a serial killer though. Why only burn the head, hands and feet?
 ___________________________________
[Aug 16,2016 7:52pm - susurrate ""]
attempt to remove dentals, fingerprints, and footprints? it makes no sense, but people watch too much tv these days so who knows what a psychopath will think is a good way to conceal a crime,

i noticed its a possible inter-state crime. officials have said that though they don't conclude by any means its connected to the NY thing, they said they haven't ruled it out. and the fact that the subject here lived in NYC and was just visiting MA, it makes it all the creepier.
 _____________________________________
[Aug 16,2016 11:16pm - MotleyGrue ""]
That's why the serial killer theory makes sense, but still too soon, this world is a fucking ashtray, people put out like fucking cigarettes with no remorse, next.
 ________________________________________
[Aug 17,2016 9:00am - pink lemonade  ""]
that Princeton murder is very odd. i generally think of that area as exceptionally boring but every now and then something completely bizarre will happen.
 ________________________________________
[Aug 17,2016 9:10am - pink lemonade  ""]
this dude was bad news but he is in the clink: http://www.masslive.com/news/worcester/ind...convicted_killer_called_a_pers.html
 ___________________________________
[Aug 17,2016 11:46am - posbleak ""]

susurrate said:i'm over that whole deal. family is guilty as sin. i'll watch it but i'm sure it will be a puff piece w/ about 5% tension for the cameras.


Yeah I wish it was p much anybody else interviewing but it's the last unsolved crime from my childhood so I'll take anything I can get

Anybody into true crime podcasts, I've been catching up on Sword & Scale and My Favorite Murder, just finished Someone Knows Something and starting Criminal. They're all really solid, MFM is more comedy but they pick up some obscure cases.
 ___________________________________
[Aug 17,2016 2:23pm - susurrate ""]

posbleak said:
susurrate said:i'm over that whole deal. family is guilty as sin. i'll watch it but i'm sure it will be a puff piece w/ about 5% tension for the cameras.


Yeah I wish it was p much anybody else interviewing but it's the last unsolved crime from my childhood so I'll take anything I can get

Anybody into true crime podcasts, I've been catching up on Sword & Scale and My Favorite Murder, just finished Someone Knows Something and starting Criminal. They're all really solid, MFM is more comedy but they pick up some obscure cases.



i'll check into some of those for sure. i finished Serial season 1 awhile ago and have also been listening to True Crime Garage and the Vanished Podcast. tried getting into bob ruffs truth & justice podcast but ehhh
 _________________________________
[Aug 17,2016 3:17pm - Clue U  ""]
Matt Gittings did it with the badly cut heroin in the practice room.

[img]
 ___________________________________
[Aug 26,2016 6:18pm - susurrate ""]
not a crime by any means,

but still worthy of a post.

Gerry Largay attempted the Appalachian Trail, lost her way relieving herself off trail, and according to authorities, lived for 26 days after losing her way. she ran out of food on day 4 (eating meals of a couple almonds and a few fritos) all while writing in a journal to her loved ones and to the person who found her remains.

she was just about 2 miles from a well-known trail that turns into a public road which would have given her the means to exit the woods safely. haunting.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2016/08/24/when-you-find-body-the-last-days-hiker-gerry-largay/DcaZf6RcojOTN2LNsOXm0K/story.html



https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/05/25/hiker-who-died-after-disappearing-from-appalachian-trail-survived-for-weeks/KAcHuKSdYVHNTNu0qQobvK/story.html


http://northeastexplorer.com/wordpress/?p=3805
 _______________________________________
[Aug 26,2016 9:13pm - Barrel roll  ""]
You can view the discovery of her body on an animal planet show about Maine game wardens. It was eerie.
 ___________________________________
[Aug 26,2016 9:50pm - susurrate ""]

Barrel%20roll said:You can view the discovery of her body on an animal planet show about Maine game wardens. It was eerie.


yeah, i saw it one day after knowing all about her story. thought it was unrelated then they ID'd her and i was like damn. just tried to find the clip on dailymotion/youtube without success, but here's an additional newslink-



http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/166...missing-hiker-off-appalachian-trail

that episode was a bummer.


*edited to mention the show is called North Woods Law.
 _________________________________________
[Aug 28,2016 3:19pm - True crime fan  ""]
Anyone following the film maker David Crowley's murder suicide?

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/det...er-suicide-emerge-article-1.2498838
 _______________________________________________
[Aug 29,2016 9:19am - necrotized goat meat  ""]
@susurrate did you read these articles? this guy suspects a few things - incompetence on the part of the wardens, navy SERE, and largay deciding to stop taking her meds, etc:

http://thebollard.com/2015/12/03/m-i-a-on-the-a-t-survival/
http://thebollard.com/2016/01/07/m-i-a-on-the-a-t-evasion/
http://thebollard.com/2016/03/03/m-i-a-on-the-a-t-inanition/
http://thebollard.com/2016/07/04/m-i-a-on-the-a-t-no-escape/
 ____________________________________
[Aug 29,2016 10:22am - susurrate ""]

necrotized%20goat%20meat said:@susurrate did you read these articles? this guy suspects a few things - incompetence on the part of the wardens, navy SERE, and largay deciding to stop taking her meds, etc:

http://thebollard.com/2015/12/03/m-i-a-on-the-a-t-survival/
http://thebollard.com/2016/01/07/m-i-a-on-the-a-t-evasion/
http://thebollard.com/2016/03/03/m-i-a-on-the-a-t-inanition/
http://thebollard.com/2016/07/04/m-i-a-on-the-a-t-no-escape/



have not, but i will after work. thanks!
 _____________________________________
[Aug 30,2016 11:09pm - MotleyGrue ""]

susurrate said:
necrotized%20goat%20meat said:@susurrate did you read these articles? this guy suspects a few things - incompetence on the part of the wardens, navy SERE, and largay deciding to stop taking her meds, etc:

http://thebollard.com/2015/12/03/m-i-a-on-the-a-t-survival/
http://thebollard.com/2016/01/07/m-i-a-on-the-a-t-evasion/
http://thebollard.com/2016/03/03/m-i-a-on-the-a-t-inanition/
http://thebollard.com/2016/07/04/m-i-a-on-the-a-t-no-escape/



have not, but i will after work. thanks!



wut? I have some catching up to do
 ________________________________________
[Sep 3,2016 6:42pm - True crime fan  ""]
Closure?

http://kstp.com/news/jacob-wetterling-dann...y-wetterling-investigation/4253499/
 __________________________________
[Sep 8,2016 8:40am - susurrate ""]
here's a rather interesting story. 18 year old kid went missing in 2008 in colorado. last year they found his body in the CHIMNEY of an abandoned cabin less than a mile from his home. his knees were above his head and his legs became detached from his torso. occam's razor says the kid was just bored and wanted to explore the abandoned cabin. but isn't it really just easier to smash/jimmy a window or door in the middle of nowhere?

this must have been a grueling, long death all alone. in the woods and inside a chimney where no one can hear you. fuck.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-32...ar-old-missing-7-years-chimney.html


i also recently watched a program about this kid Tyler Hadley from (you guessed it), Florida. He was 17 I believe and wanted to host a party so he figured the viable thing to do would be to murder his parents. he took three hits of ecstacy, grabbed a claw hammer, stood behind his mother for 5 minutes while she was using the computer waiting to build up the confidence to do it, and he did her first, then his father. he then loaded their bodies into a bedroom, tossed trash and household shit all over their bodies, and threw a rager for like 60 people while their bodies were in the house going through the first stages of death. even posed for a sweet selfie holding up a solo cup. he told his best buddy about it during the party and even showed him the crime scene. his buddy wound up staying and partying for awhile after finding out which is when the selfie was taken. eesh.

[img]

apparently he's a sort-of-celebrity in jail. people call him "hambo" and ask for his autograph with which he includes the caption "Hammer Time". unreal lol

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/tyler-hadleys-killer-party-20131218
 _________________________________________
[Sep 8,2016 11:04am - Detective Rttp  ""]
A break in a 20 year old case:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/07/us/missing-cal-poly-student/
 ______________________________________
[Sep 8,2016 11:48am - santa claus  ""]

susurrate said:here's a rather interesting story. 18 year old kid went missing in 2008 in colorado. last year they found his body in the CHIMNEY of an abandoned cabin less than a mile from his home. his knees were above his head and his legs became detached from his torso. occam's razor says the kid was just bored and wanted to explore the abandoned cabin. but isn't it really just easier to smash/jimmy a window or door in the middle of nowhere?

this must have been a grueling, long death all alone. in the woods and inside a chimney where no one can hear you. fuck.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-32...ar-old-missing-7-years-chimney.html

WTF

 __________________________________
[Sep 8,2016 2:16pm - susurrate ""]

santa%20claus said:
susurrate said:here's a rather interesting story. 18 year old kid went missing in 2008 in colorado. last year they found his body in the CHIMNEY of an abandoned cabin less than a mile from his home. his knees were above his head and his legs became detached from his torso. occam's razor says the kid was just bored and wanted to explore the abandoned cabin. but isn't it really just easier to smash/jimmy a window or door in the middle of nowhere?

this must have been a grueling, long death all alone. in the woods and inside a chimney where no one can hear you. fuck.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-32...ar-old-missing-7-years-chimney.html

WTF




yeah- i keep picturing the corpse positioning in my head. if i was the demo worker that found him, i'd probably have nightmares for the rest of my life. not sure what it is about a body contorted within a chimney that bothers me so much, but it does.

 __________________________________
[Sep 8,2016 6:50pm - susurrate ""]
ATTN MotleyGrue- Johnny Gosch documentary now on netflix.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2704816/

watching tonight maybe


*edited to add reading material below

http://rense.com/general67/gannn.htm
 __________________________________
[Sep 8,2016 9:27pm - susurrate ""]
wow i just read about a hell of a plot twist regarding the kid in the chimney. more to come on that. i don't believe the official story whatsoever.
 ____________________________________
[Sep 8,2016 11:23pm - MotleyGrue ""]

susurrate said:ATTN MotleyGrue- Johnny Gosch documentary now on netflix.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2704816/

watching tonight maybe


*edited to add reading material below

http://rense.com/general67/gannn.htm



Interesting, will watch tonight or this weekend,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 ___________________________________
[Sep 9,2016 12:33pm - susurrate ""]
Destroyer 666 has a song about the somerton man on their latest record. Neat.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamam_Shud_case


bennyhillifier
 ___________________________________
[Sep 13,2016 9:39pm - susurrate ""]
solved.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/201...ts_of_two_me.html#incart_river_home
 ___________________________________
[Sep 20,2016 4:06pm - susurrate ""]
been a big couple of weeks for true crime.

Jacob Wetterling's case was solved: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-ad...-missing-minnesota-boy-1989-n643506

Jessica Heeringa's case was solved: http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/index.s...jessica_heeringa_died_at_hands.html


And extremely surprising...... anyone who was/is an Unsolved Mysteries kinda guy or gal will remember this one.... Lori Erica Ruff's identity has finally been solved. No name/circumstance stated yet but apparently a newspaper article is in the works. Never ever thought I'd see this one solved: https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/53nii2/lori_erica_ruff_namus_page_taken_down/

on the Maura Murray front, speculation still continues. little hints here and there get uncovered weekly. i think MM's disappearance will be solved in the next couple years for sure considering how much renewed interest there is.

shame no new info was released in the vanessa marcotte rape/murder. i really want to see that one solved. just a brutal, senseless fucking thing.


*edited to add 2 theories on JonBenet now that it's all of a sudden a thing again. i never paid attention to the case because truthfully, i find extremely affluent people abhorrent in nature in certain situations-especially these people who loved to flaunt and (basically) sexualize their child for fame and profit. i speculated without even reading up on the case and knowing the bare minimum that the ramseys hired a hispanic male (DNA found hispanic male DNA) and maybe 1 other person to sneak in the basement window, fake an abduction, and cash in on it. but something went wrong and she was killed. my new theory is basically that of what CBS was just talking about- Burke Ramsey accidentally or maliciously killed JonBenet during a late night argument and the parents covered it up surprisingly well.

link here-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-37...lking-911-call-thought-hung-up.html
 _____________________________________
[Sep 20,2016 7:46pm - susurrrate  ""]
[img]
 ___________________________________
[Sep 20,2016 7:51pm - susurrate ""]
your search history, not mine.
 ___________________________________
[Sep 21,2016 10:47am - posbleak ""]
Burke Ramsey contradicted the story that he's been giving police for 20 years on Dr. Phil, the most softball interview possible (Phil & the Ramsey family have the same lawyer), just casually saying that he took the flashlight and went downstairs after the parents went to bed. The CBS docu was super unprofessional but also brought up a lot of stuff I'd never heard before, like Burke going into Jonbenet's room the night she died and smearing shit on her presents and bed? WTF
 ________________________________________________________
[Sep 24,2016 12:53am - New Order Lyrics Bot 2016 AD  ""]
When a new life turns towards you
And the night becomes a bay
We shall remain forever
Everyone who meets his way
Oh, our love is like the flowers
The rain and the sea and the hours
Oh, our love is like the flowers
The rain and the sea and the hours

When the rain falls to the sea
They'll be waiting for you and for me
And the sky reflects our image
Trying to sleep right through our lives

Oh, our love is like the earth
The sun and the trees and the birth
Oh, our love is like the earth
The sun and the trees and the birth

I am still here two days later
Same place, same time
And I'm stuck here two years too long
Same place, the wrong time

Oh, our love is like the flowers
The rain and the sea and the hours
Oh, our love is like the flowers
The sun and the sea and the hours

Their love died three years ago
Spoken words I cannot show
 ___________________________________
[Sep 26,2016 3:42pm - god lord  ""]
wat

http://www.providencejournal.com/news/2016...t-sank-fast-he-didnt-see-his-mother
 ___________________________________
[Oct 12,2016 5:29pm - susurrate ""]
The Tamam Shud (Somerton Man) is close to being solved. If you don't know it, check it out.

Christine Harron's case has been solved. If you want to see a truly unremorseful sociopathic deviant, check out the murderers comments.
http://cnews.canoe.com/CNEWS/Crime/2016/10/12/22673881.html

Also, the DA released a DNA-generated sketch of the man who murdered Lisa Ziegert in Agawam. You may remember this case from UNSOLVED MYSTERIES- girl who worked in a gift card shop murdered in the back of the store.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/201...made_in_unso.html#incart_river_home


another unresolved mystery- what happened to anon user "tree and rope"?


and ATTN motleygrue- we had mentioned fucked up audio recordings earlier, and i can't remember if i included the Brandon Lawson 911 call. Dive into that fucking rabbit hole if you haven't heard of it. Reddit is awash with theories and transcribed versions of what people think the 911 call says.
 ___________________________________
[Oct 12,2016 5:37pm - susurrate ""]
In reference to Hoser's comment far above, this must be frustrating as fuck for local LE. The suspect depicted in the link below seems like one of those situations where you're an inch from being able to charge the guy, but that critical piece of information/evidence is missing. Circumstantial stuff can be very difficult. Either way, sad story. An 8 year old disappearing is just fucked up. I hope NHCCU hasn't stored this case away yet.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/belanger_tammy.html
 ___________________________________
[Oct 12,2016 5:40pm - susurrate ""]

posbleak said:
susurrate said:i'm over that whole deal. family is guilty as sin. i'll watch it but i'm sure it will be a puff piece w/ about 5% tension for the cameras.


Yeah I wish it was p much anybody else interviewing but it's the last unsolved crime from my childhood so I'll take anything I can get

Anybody into true crime podcasts, I've been catching up on Sword & Scale and My Favorite Murder, just finished Someone Knows Something and starting Criminal. They're all really solid, MFM is more comedy but they pick up some obscure cases.




also i watched the new ramsey shit on the networks. i believe burke did it and the parents covered it up due to their reputation of themselves and their son. it'd be hard to sway me otherwise, especially with the severe inconsistencies regarding the handwriting of the alleged ransom note, as well as the convenient mobbing of their home by friends and family before, during, and after the police arrived.

also, an officer telling a man to search his own mansion? what the FUCK? that's such a false fucking thing to do. $$$$$$$$$$$ and power and rep can do a lot apparently.
 ___________________________________
[Oct 14,2016 6:56pm - susurrate ""]
what is up with central mass? if it isn't worcester, you're likely to see some hillbilly drug trash wherever you go. it's basically new missouri.

also, this is extremely fucked up. extremely.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/201...l#incart_river_home#incart_breaking
 _____________________________________
[Oct 15,2016 12:10am - MotleyGrue ""]

susurrate said:The Tamam Shud (Somerton Man) is close to being solved. If you don't know it, check it out.

Christine Harron's case has been solved. If you want to see a truly unremorseful sociopathic deviant, check out the murderers comments.
http://cnews.canoe.com/CNEWS/Crime/2016/10/12/22673881.html

Also, the DA released a DNA-generated sketch of the man who murdered Lisa Ziegert in Agawam. You may remember this case from UNSOLVED MYSTERIES- girl who worked in a gift card shop murdered in the back of the store.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/201...made_in_unso.html#incart_river_home


another unresolved mystery- what happened to anon user "tree and rope"?


and ATTN motleygrue- we had mentioned fucked up audio recordings earlier, and i can't remember if i included the Brandon Lawson 911 call. Dive into that fucking rabbit hole if you haven't heard of it. Reddit is awash with theories and transcribed versions of what people think the 911 call says.




Listened to audio, read up on it, that story is just fucked, could go so many different ways of what could have really happened. I can understand being fucked up on drugs to alter your state of mind, but really why call the police if you have a warrant, and you already called your brother for help, so that leaves me leaning towards something nefarious he stumbled upon.

How do you live in a small town and not know you are running out of gas? Was it a bad drug deal? Other drug dealer wanting to kill him? Why was that last ping from his phone in that area not searched? Or was he some terrible shithead person wanting to start a new life?
 ___________________________________________
[Oct 15,2016 12:17am - Nuke central ma  ""]
Orange Webster Springfield Triangle?
 _____________________________________
[Oct 15,2016 12:18am - MotleyGrue ""]
https://soundcloud.com/fromthecouv/brandon-lawson-911-call-filtered
 __________________________________
[Nov 3,2016 6:23pm - susurrate ""]
http://wwlp.com/2016/11/03/woman-found-chained-like-dog-in-woodruff-sc/ < savage.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/ < this is the best resource you can get on true crime. very active subreddit. lynn messer's possible skeleton may have been discovered and it was posted about today i believe. pretty much a one-stop-shop for unsolved mystery style cravings.
 __________________________________
[Nov 3,2016 6:24pm - susurrate ""]

MotleyGrue said:https://soundcloud.com/fromthecouv/brandon-lawson-911-call-filtered


get this shit dude. that call was edited by law enforcement before it was released. it's missing portions. makes it hard to discern the storyline. upsetting.
 ___________________________________
[Nov 6,2016 11:56am - susurrate ""]
serial killer was caught recently. responsible for the south carolina super bike murders and more. caught cause they found a missing woman in a metal container on his property chained up like a dog.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/06/suspe...g-admits-to-at-least-7-murders.html

http://ijr.com/2016/11/728953-grim-details...is-found-on-sex-offenders-property/
 ____________________________________
[Nov 20,2016 1:41pm - MotleyGrue ""]
Recent missing persons episode from Coast to Coast


bennyhillifier
 ___________________________________
[Nov 20,2016 2:21pm - susurrate ""]
EXCELLENT. thanks! I listen to it live every night when i go to bed but i'm usually out after 15 minutes or so. i'll be listening to this at work tomorrow.
 ___________________________________
[Nov 23,2016 5:32pm - susurrate ""]
"Zachary Yashkus posted this on Facebook right before he killed his girlfriend, their 3-year old son and finally himself"

[img]

Happened about 4 or so days ago.

http://wnep.com/2016/11/19/three-dead-afte...ning-of-violence-in-luzerne-county/
 ___________________________________
[Nov 30,2016 4:20pm - susurrate ""]
http://wate.com/2016/11/30/knox-county-she...ffs-office-to-hold-news-conference/

excerpt:

The Knox County Sheriff’s Office said Joel Michael Guy, 28, was arrested in Baton Rouge and charged with murdering his parents.

Guy was arrested Tuesday evening in Baton Rouge and charged with two counts of first degree murder for the deaths of Joel and Lisa Guy on Goldenview Lane in Knox County. Investigators described the crime scene as “horrific” and said it was a “very gruesome crime scene.”

They are believed to have been murdered between Friday night and Saturday morning. Guy then went back to Baton Rouge where he had been attending LSU. He reportedly withdrew last year.

Both his parents had multiple stab wounds and had been dismembered. Investigators said Guy tried to dissolve his parent’s bodies in an acid-based solution. A hazmat team had to be called in to remove the material.

Remains were disposed of in multiple rooms throughout the house. The chief medical examiner had to remove the remains from the scene for identification.

Detectives say there was information his parents were planning to cut off some of his financial support in a conversation that was to take place on Thanksgiving. It is not yet known if this was a motive.
 ________________________________
[Dec 3,2016 8:06am - Unfake  ""]
This kidnapping looks fishy to me. Its got fraud written all over it. A gofundme page is set up, 50k was raised then all of the sudden shows up just in time for Thanksgiving?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/husband-super-mom...e-alive-screaming/story?id=43911092
 __________________________________
[Dec 3,2016 9:44am - susurrate ""]

Unfake said:This kidnapping looks fishy to me. Its got fraud written all over it. A gofundme page is set up, 50k was raised then all of the sudden shows up just in time for Thanksgiving?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/husband-super-mom...e-alive-screaming/story?id=43911092



I believe you are right on the money. She has been proven to have in the past stated derogatory things about Hispanics on her personal social media shit, gets kidnapped by two Hispanic WOMEN with guns? And they let her live? And all they did was beat her up and cut her hair off? Totally fraudulent for personal gain and media attention. Money will keep coming in through 20/20 dateline 48 hrs episode contracts too no matter whether its real or not. Id bet the farm its a bullshit setup and she's just another Gone Girl.

:shocker:
 __________________________________
[Dec 3,2016 1:23pm - susurrate ""]
ALTHOUGH

i was fooled pretty hard one time. the infamous matthew muller case in vallejo, california. former marine dressed up in a fucking SCUBA SUIT and invaded the home of a good-looking-young-professional-white-californian-couple's house and put blacked out swim goggles over their eyes and headphones on them and blah blah blah no one believed them including me but then as it fucking turns out.....


It Did Happen.


^edited to say that's a link. couldn't see it before as it was at the bottom.
 ___________________________________
[Dec 3,2016 2:03pm - MotleyGrue ""]
I have read about this case a few years ago about a London M16 agent found dead in a locked travel bag in his tub. It had been ruled a suicide if I am correct.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-32...cking-secret-data-Bill-Clinton.html
 __________________________________
[Dec 3,2016 2:16pm - susurrate ""]

MotleyGrue said:I have read about this case a few years ago about a London M16 agent found dead in a locked travel bag in his tub. It had been ruled a suicide if I am correct.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-32...cking-secret-data-Bill-Clinton.html



I remember briefly reading that article last year and asking wtf. but now, after all the work i've put in toward my private investigator license, i'd be interested in learning more. this is fairly insane on second glance. i'll have to seek out other news sources for information on it to make a personal profile on what I think.
 __________________________________
[Dec 3,2016 2:16pm - susurrate ""]
addendum is being a spy is probably the least best job to ever have because you're 110% expendable.
 __________________________________
[Dec 3,2016 3:17pm - susurrate ""]
Matthew Borges arrested in the slaying and decapitation of the 16 year old high school student.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/201...high_school_student_arrested_i.html

http://patch.com/massachusetts/northandove...rimack-river-identification-ongoing
 __________________________________
[Dec 9,2016 3:53pm - susurrate ""]
old news but this fucking case..... ugh. this is the lowest of the low, scum of the earth. absolute living breathing pieces of human shit. if you don't already know about this one or need a refresher, read it. in all truth, i couldn't care less about the racial disparity and the way that this case invigorated a bunch of white people on the internet to get all mad and type stupid shit they'd never say in person, but i understand the rage. i've never seen another case where i've been filled with so much anger based upon the depravity versus the attempted gain from the crime. what was it for? oh yeah, just some money. or wait, never mind. just an SUV. or wait, "never mind. we got spooked cause we're a bunch of fucking pussies so we don't even care about the SUV now. we're too scared of jail". they got nothing of tangible value.

i was just thinking awhile ago about the death penalty and so forth. was always undecided. still am. but there should be certain standards in place for execution of criminals who beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt in the eyes of the court and the people are guilty, based upon true irrefutable evidence. standards that would implement a rigorous plan of bodily and mental torture. maybe some bleach down the throat too. i'm sure that girl loved that. fuck. /end rant.


http://archive.knoxnews.com/news/local/hor...-street-ep-358243140-355833211.html
 _____________________________________
[Dec 10,2016 6:02pm - aril alert  ""]

susurrate said:old news.


:wiggam:aril alert:wiggam:
 ___________________________________
[Dec 10,2016 6:46pm - susurrate ""]

aril%20alert said:
susurrate said:old news.


:wiggam:aril alert:wiggam:



[img]

:moe:
 ____________________________________
[Dec 12,2016 8:40am - Hoser_NLI  ""]

susurrate said:old news but this fucking case..... ugh. this is the lowest of the low, scum of the earth. absolute living breathing pieces of human shit. if you don't already know about this one or need a refresher, read it. in all truth, i couldn't care less about the racial disparity and the way that this case invigorated a bunch of white people on the internet to get all mad and type stupid shit they'd never say in person, but i understand the rage. i've never seen another case where i've been filled with so much anger based upon the depravity versus the attempted gain from the crime. what was it for? oh yeah, just some money. or wait, never mind. just an SUV. or wait, "never mind. we got spooked cause we're a bunch of fucking pussies so we don't even care about the SUV now. we're too scared of jail". they got nothing of tangible value.

i was just thinking awhile ago about the death penalty and so forth. was always undecided. still am. but there should be certain standards in place for execution of criminals who beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt in the eyes of the court and the people are guilty, based upon true irrefutable evidence. standards that would implement a rigorous plan of bodily and mental torture. maybe some bleach down the throat too. i'm sure that girl loved that. fuck. /end rant.


http://archive.knoxnews.com/news/local/hor...-street-ep-358243140-355833211.html



I hope these fuckbags burn in hell. Hopefully someone does the same to their family.
 ___________________________________
[Jan 4,2017 12:56pm - susurrate ""]
I find it interesting that authorities suspended the search for this kid that went missing in CT on his dirt bike. I feel like they would only do that if they suspect something weird is up such as a) he intentionally went missing and sent those texts to his girlfriend to throw them off in the wrong dierction, or b) someone else sent those texts on his phone, indicative of foul play.

what say you?

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/201...ml#incart_river_home#incart_m-rpt-2
 _________________________________________________
[Jan 4,2017 1:27pm - i never leave the house  ""]
yeah that story is odd.

some lulz here:
http://turtleboysports.com/missing-18-year...et-speculation-mystery-of-all-time/

and

http://turtleboysports.com/internet-detect...page-that-keeps-censoring-comments/

but to be fair, dying and disappearing in the woods is probably easier to do than people think.
 ___________________________________
[Jan 4,2017 2:06pm - susurrate  ""]

i%20never%20leave%20the%20house said:http://turtleboysports.com/missing-18-year-old-in-connecticut-has-turned-into-the-greatest-internet-speculation-mystery-of-all-time/




2 things:

1) "But the Internet has turned into a really bad episode of Nancy Grace"- Isn't every episode bad? I've never been able to make it more than a few minutes into one of her shows because she is basically the devil and is the most annoying cunt on the planet.

2) what a shitshow. everyone needs to stay the fuck off social media in general. when the rumor mill starts turning on Facebook or twitter or wherever, everyone's a career detective who passed the test on their first try. and social media is the #1 cause of people opening their mouth, er, typing with their fingers, before thinking.
 ___________________________________
[Jan 4,2017 2:08pm - susurrate  ""]
also, none of those children can spell. that is mind boggling.
 _________________________________________________
[Jan 4,2017 3:24pm - i never leave the house  ""]
i think he has eloped with Maura Murray in the white mountains!
 ______________________________
[Jan 12,2017 9:51am - wat  ""]
http://www.providencejournal.com/news/2017...ng-to-81-victims-says-russian-media

Former Siberian policeman Mikhail Popkov, who is already serving a life sentence for the murders of 22 women, has confessed to killing 59 more, police told the Siberian Times.

Nicknamed the "werewolf" of Siberia for the brutality of his methods - he raped women and then killed them with axes, knives or screwdrivers - Mikhail Popkov carried out his bloody rampage between 1992 and 2010 in the Angarsk and Irkutsk regions of Siberia, the paper reported. According to the state news agency Tass, he resigned as a police officer in 1998.
 ______________________________
[Jan 12,2017 1:18pm - wat  ""]
necrotized sibling:

http://whdh.com/news/woman-lives-with-sist...rookline-home-for-more-than-a-year/

that must have smelled interesting.
 ___________________________________
[Jan 12,2017 8:16pm - susurrate ""]

wat said:necrotized sibling:

http://whdh.com/news/woman-lives-with-sist...rookline-home-for-more-than-a-year/

that must have smelled interesting.



this type of human really interests me. it may be that i come from a sociology background, but i'd love to interview said person.
 ____________________________________
[Jan 13,2017 12:29pm - susurrate ""]
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/201..._say_body_of.html#incart_river_home


welp, they found him. the vagueness sounds like foul play. i doubt he sent those texts himself after all.
 ___________________________________
[Jan 13,2017 5:45pm - susurrate ""]
a deal for fuckin weed of all things gone bad. i refuse to believe the kid thats dead had a gun- seems like a bid for self defense. note the alleged gun was not found. funny that turtle boy sports was on the money posting about the marijuana grow that the allen family had. read this shit guys-

http://www.courant.com/breaking-news/hc-to...ains-found-0114-20170113-story.html
 _____________________________________
[Jan 23,2017 7:14pm - slenderman  ""]
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/jan/23/beware-the-slenderman-review-meme-stabbing

tonight!
 ___________________________________
[Jan 24,2017 3:34pm - susurrate ""]
those slenderman kids are waaaaaacked. don't all kids know how to use urban dictionary/wikipedia these days? them creepy pasta shits aint real.

also- this has suspicious written all over it.

http://pilotonline.com/news/local/missing-...25-97d6-5ef9-b8f5-5a4cdbbaeac1.html
 ___________________________________
[Jan 24,2017 3:36pm - susurrate ""]
to follow up, here's the original story w/ more background info.

http://pilotonline.com/news/local/mom-and-...09-5198-5d65-8163-b76226502aa6.html
 _____________________________________
[Jan 24,2017 11:23pm - MotleyGrue ""]
DVR'd the Slenderman, gonna watch it this week under the influence.
 ________________________________________
[Jan 25,2017 7:14pm - Nuke Humanity  ""]
Woman and children in barrels NH cold case linked to California murder:

http://www.concordmonitor.com/NH-Attorney-...-cases-to-California-murder-7696046
 ___________________________________
[Jan 25,2017 7:21pm - susurrate ""]

Nuke%20Humanity said:Woman and children in barrels NH cold case linked to California murder:

http://www.concordmonitor.com/NH-Attorney-General-s-Office-to-link-cold-cases-to-California-murder-7696046



No way. Wow.


ATTN HOSER ^
 _________________________________________
[Jan 26,2017 11:05am - Nuke Humanity  ""]

susurrate said:
Nuke%20Humanity said:Woman and children in barrels NH cold case linked to California murder:

http://www.concordmonitor.com/NH-Attorney-General-s-Office-to-link-cold-cases-to-California-murder-7696046



No way. Wow.


ATTN HOSER ^



the piece of shit died in jail:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/01/2...s/4wlfVCvOkLRi2xMEemRj6H/story.html
 ___________________________________________
[Feb 23,2017 12:56pm - untimely demise  ""]
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/02/2...e/FRBcJh2nHc2KddvmmmkMSJ/story.html

Worcester District Attorney Joseph D. Early Jr. said at a press conference that, based on witness statements and information extracted from the DNA, investigators are looking for a Hispanic or Latino male in his thirties who may have been in the area where Marcotte was killed on Aug. 7. He asked for the public’s help in finding the person.

Early described the person of interest as having light to medium brown skin, an athletic build, and a shaved head or short hair. He said the person would possibly have had scratches on his face, neck, arms, hands, and upper body around the time of the murder.
 ____________________________________________
[Apr 17,2017 8:57am - True Crime Update  ""]
Princeton jogger killer arrested: https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/04/15/police-arrest-suspect-august-killing-jogger-princeton/R9Bo9PsFy7Bl3xB7JsaKxM/story.html

Dindu Nuffon on the loose after livestream murder of elderly pedestrian: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39617883
 _______________________________
[Apr 17,2017 9:44am - Hoser ""]
Due to who I work for, I am still very interested in getting any info that I can on Tammy Belanger. I still take tips here and there about her disappearance.

http://www.wmur.com/article/exeter-police-...ion-in-case-of-missing-girl/5181427

https://www.doj.nh.gov/criminal/cold-case/victim-list/tammy-belanger.htm
 ____________________________________
[Apr 17,2017 10:06am - susurrate ""]
Glad to see Vanessa Marcotte's killer was apprehended. I think there's some other stuff I posted about on this thread which recently had some breakthroughs but I forget.

@ hoser - gotta be tough trying to solve a cold case that old.
 _______________________________
[Apr 17,2017 3:02pm - Hoser ""]
We're pretty positive who did it, just never had enough physical evidence to pin it on him. piece of shit died in a Florida jail. Just wish we could find her remains and bring some closure to the family.
 ___________________________________
[Apr 17,2017 3:29pm - susurrate ""]
Died in a Florida prison? you don't think it's the same perp that died in a Florida prison who some suspect abducted and killed Molly Bish, do you? I understand you may not be able to comment.
 _______________________________
[Apr 18,2017 9:08am - Hoser ""]
No, they're unrelated. The suspect in the Belanger case was a Victor Wonyetye. He was in prison in Florida for a similar crime. Total piece of garbage.
 _______________________________
[Apr 18,2017 9:12am - Hoser ""]
http://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20130606/NEWS/130609849
 ___________________________________
[Apr 18,2017 7:02pm - susurrate ""]
Amen to this article -

http://turtleboysports.com/just-like-we-ca...and-is-dragging-the-family-through/
 _______________________________________
[May 4,2017 3:00pm - cinco de mayo  ""]
illegal migration to USA results in mass causalities w/pics

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/04/us/texas-border-migrants-dead-bodies.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
 ___________________________________
[Jun 21,2017 8:55am - susurrate ""]
http://www.wmur.com/article/video-of-polic...ope-for-clues-about-killer/10161500

New Hampshire stuff
 ___________________________________
[Jun 25,2017 2:03pm - susurrate ""]
shitty mom who should be executed

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/201...t_2_toddlers.html#incart_river_home
 __________________________________________
[Jul 13,2017 9:06am - daily bad feels  ""]
spergy looking Pennsylvania guy killed 4 people on his family farm:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/12/us/arrest-missing-men-bucks-county.html


[img]
 ___________________________________
[Jul 16,2017 1:37pm - susurrate ""]
Lunatic Retard ^


Anywho, Check out the Jo Ringer case. It's a matter of finding the body now. She has to be somewhere around here in the western region of the state.

On top of that, get a load of this. Supremely fucked. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jul/14/young-woman-allegedly-tortured-so-badly-police-thought-she-was-dead
 __________________________________
[Aug 4,2017 5:30pm - susurrate ""]
What in the fuck

http://wwlp.com/2017/08/04/maryland-father...on-to-death-leaving-body-in-hearse/
 __________________________________
[Aug 4,2017 5:32pm - susurrate ""]
sick tats bro

[img]
 ___________________________________________
[Aug 18,2017 11:16am - i am elite1111!  ""]
NH barrel killer ID'ed

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/08/1...s/6Nma4Dasrj7Quz6aBFsdbO/story.html
 ____________________________________
[Aug 18,2017 12:42pm - susurrate ""]
whoa!!! i F12'd and removed the paywall but it's a hard paywall so I cant scroll. Can you copy and paste?

Is the name in the article the true name of the guy who was going by the alias "Bob Evans?"

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/drifte...beaudin-case-bodies-barrels-n712506
 __________________________________________
[Aug 18,2017 4:11pm - i am elite1111!  ""]
copy pasta incoming:


For years the serial killer rambled across the country, working as an electrician and handyman and leaving a trail of victims while masking his true identity. He was Bob Evans in the late 1970s when he arrived in New Hampshire, where he killed a woman and three girls — including his own daughter — and dumped them in steel barrels in the woods of Allenstown.

In the 1980s, he claimed to be Gordon Jenson, a widowed father, when he abandoned a 5-year-old girl at a California trailer park after presumably killing her mother. And he was someone else in 2002 when he murdered his new wife and buried her body in the basement.

Now, seven years after the killer died in prison, still using an identity he stole in Texas, New Hampshire authorities announced Friday that they have positively identified the mystery man.

He’s Terry Peder Rasmussen who was born in Denver in 1943, grew up in Phoenix and served in the US Navy in the early 1960s until being discharged in 1967. During his time in the Navy, Rasmussen was assigned to bases in the western part of the country and in Okinawa, Japan.

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He was married while in the Navy and eventually had four children with his wife, who separated from him in 1973, taking the children with her. Rasmussen’s former wife and children “are alive and accounted for,’’ New Hampshire authorities said Friday.

View Story
Timeline: The history of serial killer Terry Peder Rasmussen
For years the serial killer rambled across the country, working as an electrician and handyman and leaving a trail of victims.
Finding Lisa: A story of murders, mysteries, and, incredibly, new life

The last time Rasmussen’s former wife saw him was around Christmas 1974 when he showed up unexpectedly in Payson, Ariz., authorities said. During that meeting with his former wife and four children, Rasmussen said he was living in the Casa Del Ray apartments in Ingleside, Texas.

He was accompanied by an unidentified woman and authorities are now hoping the disclosure of Rasmussen’s name will lead to discovering the name of that woman.

The stunning breakthrough announced Friday is the latest twist in a New Hampshire murder mystery that baffled authorities for decades, until a woman’s search for her parents helped unravel the case over the last year through DNA and the work of genealogists and police.

In 1985, hunters stumbled upon the barrel containing the decomposing bodies of a woman, believed to be in her mid-20s, and a girl, believed to be about 10 or 11 years old on property bordering Bear Brook. Fifteen years later, a State Police sergeant newly assigned to the case discovered the second barrel.

Authorities believed they were killed between the late 1970s and early 1980s. DNA tests revealed that the woman and two of the girls were related.

Authorities are now trying to determine Rasmussen’s whereabouts since the 1974 meeting in Arizona and the late 1970s when he appeared in New Hampshire using the alias of Bob Evans. While using that alias of Evans, Rasmussen killed the four victims, according to authorities. They said DNA tests revealed he was the father of one of the slain girls, the middle child not related to the others.

Investigators used DNA to match the man known as “Bob Evans” to Rasmussen by taking a sample from a man they now know to be “Evans” son. “Those DNA results and other investigative work have allowed investigator to confirm that Robert ‘Bob’ Evans’ true identity is in fact, Terry Peder Rasmussen,” authorities wrote.

While tracking “Evans’’ movements in the 1970s, authorities learned he was living in Manchester, N.H., with his girlfriend, Denise Beaudin, and her six-month-old daughter, when all three vanished after Thanksgiving 1981.

Beaudin’s family never reported her missing because the couple was having financial difficulties and they believed she had left voluntarily, according to police.

Authorities said they believed Rasmussen also killed Beaudin, and that he had a history of abusing women and children and they suspect that he killed others.

“He certainly fits the profile of a serial killer,” Senior Assistant Attorney General Jeffery Strelzin said during the January press conference.

The break in the long-stalled Allenstown homicide investigation came after Beaudin’s daughter launched a search for her birth family. She was 5, going by the name, Lisa Jenson, and living with a man who claimed to be her father, when he abandoned her at a Scotts Valley, Calif. trailer park in 1986. It wasn’t until years later that she discovered Rasmussen had kidnapped her.

In 2002, Rasmussen killed Eunsoon Jun, a woman he married a year earlier in an unofficial backyard ceremony, and buried her body under a pile of cat litter in the basement of their Richmond, Calif. home. At the time, he was using the name Larry Vanner, but when police ran his fingerprints they came back to Curtis Mayo Kimball -- later determined to be an identity he stole from a man in Texas.

Still using the name Kimball, he pleaded guilty to the slaying and was serving a sentence of 15 years to life when police ordered a DNA test. It revealed that he was not the father of the girl he had abandoned years earlier.

When questioned by police, he insisted he had no memory of the girl or where she came from, according to police. He died in 2010 of natural causes at a California prison, seemingly taking his secrets to the grave.

The girl was adopted by a California couple after she was abandoned and went on to lead what appears to be a remarkably normal life, marrying and having three children of her own.

In 2014, she submitted her DNA to several genomic testing sites, hoping to find matches that would lead to her parents. Ultimately, with the help of genealogists and the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department, she discovered that she was Beaudin’s daughter.

New Hampshire State Police and Manchester Police launched an investigation and discovered that Beaudin’s boyfriend, then known as Evans, was the same man who had abandoned her daughter at the trailer park.

Investigators also discovered that Rasmussen, posing as Evans, worked as an electrician at Waumbec Mills in Manchester, N.H., from 1977 to 1981, and that his supervisor owned the Allenstown property where the bodies were found. Rasmussen also did electrical work at a store on the property and had used the land to dispose of material from the mill.

When authorities announced the stunning break in the Allenstown murders, they released a statement from Beaudin’s daughter, Lisa,who is now 33 years old. She thanked everyone who had worked on her case and asked for privacy.

“I have three beautiful children and a loving husband, and would like our presently happy and secure life to remain intact and protected through the release of this story,” she said.

Anyone with information is asked to contact the New Hampshire State Police Cold Case Unit at 603-223-3856 or Manchester police detectives.
 ___________________________________
[Aug 18,2017 4:26pm - susurrate ""]
hoser would be stoked to read this
 ____________________________________
[Aug 23,2017 11:30pm - susurrate ""]
Missouri.... still the most fucked state.

http:// http://www.masslive.com/news/index...f_kil.html#incart_river_mobile_home
 _________________________________________
[Aug 24,2017 12:51am - Grandmotherweb ""]
Massachusetts: the Alabama of the North.

[img]

I wonder, will anyone ever solve the "true crime" of TurtleBoy getting away with gang-stalking people and threatening to burn their houses down, all for the sake of saving his precious pedophile blog??

inquiring minds want to know...
 _______________________________________
[Sep 4,2017 2:22pm - Murder critic  ""]
This thread lack gore pics.
 ___________________________________
[Sep 11,2017 2:57pm - susurrate ""]
Been watching the Zach Adams trial for the murder of Holly Bobo since this morning......

stream: http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/zach...adams-trial-holly-bobo-live-stream/

trial megathread w/ live updates: https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/6zfk65/holly_bobo_trial_megathread/
 ____________________________________
[Sep 12,2017 10:41pm - susurrate ""]
interesting. The Johnny Lavern "Snake" Walsh case. Old school photos within:

http://imgur.com/a/2aeYe
 ______________________________
[Sep 14,2017 8:44am - hmm  ""]
so it was holly bobos skull in the bucket? gross
 ___________________________________
[Sep 18,2017 1:56pm - susurrate ""]
^ My understanding was that the ginseng hunter picked up a bucket that was flipped upside down and underneath it there was a bunch of blonde hair. I guess intuition kicked in, he turned around, and there on the ground nearby was her skull.


Also-


Gary Schara, 48, of West Springfield arrested for the slaying of Lisa Ziegert. Finally. You may remember this crime from Unsolved Mysteries. She worked in a shop in Agawam and etc etc if you read the article you may recall it.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/201...lisa_ziegert_slayin.html#incart_std
 ___________________________________
[Nov 9,2017 2:47am - anonymous  ""]
SPAM IP: 116.23.231.1
 ___________________________________
[Nov 9,2017 2:49am - anonymous  ""]
SPAM IP: 116.23.231.1
 ______________________________________________________
[Jun 1,2018 9:14am - your daily dose of goreality  ""]
Springfield serial killer: http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/201...page_boulevard_home_stewart_we.html

Connecticut family murdered/burned by idiot crackhead son (also killed) and his crack dealers:
http://www.courant.com/g00/breaking-news/h...Z2xlLmNvbS8%3D&i10c.ua=1&i10c.dv=14
 __________________________________
[Jun 1,2018 2:47pm - susurrate ""]
Springfield is the least surprising place that would happen. Already happened once with Alfred Gaynor.
 ___________________________________
[Mar 26,2019 1:50pm - susurrate ""]
so much has happened since i last posted on this.

Folks were charged and convicted in the Holly Bobo murder (I'm on the fence about my thoughts regarding that)
They solved the disappearance/murder of Zebb Quinn
They solved the murder of Tara Grinstead
They identified the East Area Rapist/Original Night Stalker
I'm sure there's a lot more I'm forgetting right now.

aaaaand as of reports coming out last night which are still to be confirmed, they have testable DNA from the Zodiac killer. a couple sources even going as far to say the identity has been confirmed.
 ________________________________________
[Mar 26,2019 2:11pm - grandmotherweb ""]
IT'S THE ILLUMINATI, MAN !!!
 _______________________________
[Mar 26,2019 3:41pm - Wait  ""]
No, it's either Aiden Kelloran, or Brett Kearny, or maybe even Grucien Leaves...or wait, maybe Adam Kearny. I get so confused.
 _______________________________
[Mar 26,2019 3:42pm - Wait  ""]
Maybe the Gay Fraction is involved as well.

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