Secretary of Defense, Don Rumsfeld personally signed memorandum approving torture in 2003[views:6350][posts:102]_____________________________________ [Mar 9,2006 12:48pm - HailTheLeaf ""] http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33184/ That one-page memorandum "authorized sleep deprivation, stress positions, meal disruption --serving their meals late, not serving a meal. Leaving the lights on all night while playing loud music, issuing insults or criticism of their religion, their culture, their beliefs." In the left-hand margin, alongside the list of interrogation techniques to be applied, Rumsfeld had personally written, "Make sure this happens!!" Karpinski emphasized the fact that Rumsfeld had used two exclamation points. When asked how far up the chain of command responsibility for the torture orders for Abu Ghraib went, Karpinski said, "The Secretary of Defense would not have authorized without the approval of the Vice President." [img] Here's a good shot of Rummy, with his fellow war criminal buddy. "What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." --Adolf Hitler |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 9,2006 12:56pm - the_reverend ""] no duh... |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 9,2006 1:01pm - HailTheLeaf ""] for real... |
| ________________________________________ [Mar 9,2006 1:09pm - dreadedsilence ""] so? |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 9,2006 1:14pm - anonymous ""] HailTheLeaf said:Rumsfeld had used two exclamation points. Now he's just gone too far. |
| _____________________________ [Mar 9,2006 1:23pm - Yeti ""] thats what they consider torture? serving meals late and criticizing their religion? whoa boys, no need to break out the big guns |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 9,2006 1:24pm - HailTheLeaf ""] read the rest of the article |
| _____________________________________________ [Mar 9,2006 1:25pm - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] Bomb them with our surplus of fat white girls, they will stop being angry. |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 9,2006 1:26pm - scoracrasia ""] Sounds like San Quentin. What's the big deal? |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 9,2006 3:00pm - Josh_Martin ""] HailTheLeaf said:http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/33184/ That one-page memorandum "authorized sleep deprivation, stress positions, meal disruption --serving their meals late, not serving a meal. Leaving the lights on all night while playing loud music, issuing insults or criticism of their religion, their culture, their beliefs." Who is defining "torture" in this instance? None of that seems like torture to me. That's what just about every prison in America is like. I hope the left doesn't make a big deal about this. The more they cry about stupid shit like this, the less they will be listened to when the important stuff comes up. |
| ____________________________________________ [Mar 9,2006 3:16pm - DrinkHardThrashHard ""] Good for him. There is simply not enough torture in the world, and let's face it, Hostel just didn't cut it. |
| __________________________________ [Mar 9,2006 3:20pm - Dissector ""] dreadedsilence said:so? |
| ______________________________ [Mar 9,2006 9:48pm - Hoser ""] Hail The Queef makes the left look stupid again!!!! *crowd cheers* |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 9,2006 10:02pm - hungtableed ""] HailTheLeaf said: "authorized sleep deprivation, stress positions, meal disruption --serving their meals late, not serving a meal. Leaving the lights on all night while playing loud music, issuing insults or criticism of their religion, their culture, their beliefs." If you think any of the above mentioned actions are torture, then you are seriously a pussy and you obviously care more about protecting terrorists (or even potential terrorists) than U.S. soldiers and Marines. |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 10,2006 12:29pm - HailTheLeaf ""] HailTheLeaf said:read the rest of the article wow, since no one can read, I guess I'll have to post more... "A case I'd documented even before then was that of 57 year-old Sadiq Zoman. He was held for one month by U.S. forces before being dropped off in a coma at the general hospital in Tikrit. The medical report that came with his comatose body, written by U.S. Army medic Lt. Col. Michael Hodges, listed the reasons for Zoman's state as heat stroke and heart attack. That medical report, however, failed to mention anything about the physical trauma evident on Zomans' body --- the electrical point burns on the soles of his feet and on his genitals, the fact that the back of his head had been bashed in with a blunt instrument, or the lash marks up and down his body." "When I interviewed Ali Abbas in Iraq, his descriptions from Abu Ghraib bore a remarkable similarity to those given by detainees released from the American prison in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, and from the little noticed American mini-gulag in Afghanistan." "They shit on us, used dogs against us, used electricity and starved us," he told me. "They cut my hair into strips like an Indian. They shaved my mustache, put a plate in my hand, and made me go beg from the prisoners, as if I was a beggar." in Sherbegan Prison in Afghanistan in December, 2001, one of the detainees, Shafiq Rasul, described the situation as follows: "We all had body and hair lice. We got dysentery and the toilets were disgusting. It was just a hole in the ground with shit everywhere. The whole prison stank of shit and unwashed bodies." "He would not be allowed to wash for at least six weeks. He would be transferred to a U.S. base in Kandahar and endure a "forced cavity search" while he was hooded, then go on to suffer countless beatings. When he was later transferred to Guantánamo Bay, he would witness the "Guantánamo haircut" where men would either have their heads shaved completely or have a cross shaved into their head in order to insult their faith. Denial of medical care and long stays in solitary confinement, along with sleep deprivation tactics, were the norm. Other forms of treatment included: Gratuitous violence: Prisoners would be punched, kicked, and slammed to the ground. Exposure to the elements: Prisoners were locked in cage-like structures located in hangers with no heating. Denial of nourishment. Denial of religious rights including purposeful desecration of the Quran. The use of dogs to threaten prisoners. And keep in mind, this was the norm. The extreme we know from the recorded deaths of at least 98 prisoners in American hands in these years." typical prison stuff huh? nothing wrong there at all, that's a great way to treat people. Hey Hoser, since you're the expert, what does your prized Geneva convention say about this stuff? |
| ______________________________________________ [Mar 10,2006 12:37pm - tiredofhailtheleaf ""] Why don't you shut the fuck up HailtheLeaf? BLAH BLAH BLAH GET OFF THE INTERNET AND IN THE KITCHEN BITCH! |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 10,2006 12:42pm - HailTheLeaf ""] there's the intelligent response I'd expected! you know how to read, good for you, now go evolve for a few million years and maybe you'll catch up to the rest of us, I know you want your thumbs, but it looks like you'll have to wait awhile. |
| ______________________________________________ [Mar 10,2006 3:38pm - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] hungtableed said:HailTheLeaf said: "authorized sleep deprivation, stress positions, meal disruption --serving their meals late, not serving a meal. Leaving the lights on all night while playing loud music, issuing insults or criticism of their religion, their culture, their beliefs." If you think any of the above mentioned actions are torture, then you are seriously a pussy and you obviously care more about protecting terrorists (or even potential terrorists) than U.S. soldiers and Marines. Someone must have slept without his nightlight last night! |
| __________________________________ [Mar 10,2006 4:51pm - Dankill ""] ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ |
| _______________________________ [Mar 10,2006 6:32pm - Hoser ""] tiredofhailtheleaf said:Why don't you shut the fuck up HailtheLeaf? BLAH BLAH BLAH GET OFF THE INTERNET AND IN THE KITCHEN BITCH! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......She is getting pretty annoying with this dumb shit. It's still fun to see how dumbass left wingers think. I say that she keeps doing it. I've been forwarding the stuff to my father and he gets a kick out of it. He says that it's just another example of the dumb and entitled thinking that parents have so moronically allowed their children to pursue. Her parents were worthless hippies too, no doubt. |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 11,2006 12:06pm - ShadowSD ""] Conveniently avoided every point she made in her last post, didn't you Hoser? If you don't believe the report, I'd love to hear your reasoning, and if you think that the facts in the second post aren't torture, I'd love to hear that reasoning, too. Otherwise, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. (I will agree though, that HailtheLeaf's arguments would have been taken more seriously had she put the facts in the second post in the first post, because they're much harder to argue with, and clearly not everyone is going to click on the article; liberals only lose to conservatives due to lack of organization) |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 11,2006 12:17pm - HailTheLeaf ""] Hoser should go work for Faux News, he knows just how to debate current events with the left, come back with insults, personal attacks and stupidity that have nothing to do with the topic being discussed instead of making valid points with facts. |
| _______________________________ [Mar 11,2006 1:24pm - Hoser ""] You have yet to make any valid points, my dear. Who gives a shit if these Arab scum get tortured? If it saves 1 single American life, I'm all for it. What if it saved the life of one of your parents, or a loved one? You see, left wingers only bitch about things that don't directly effect them. I'm for American lives, that's all. I could give a shit about some dune monkey's personal feelings. I could give a shit about your sobbing for the terrorists. I could give a shit about the ACLU and their twisted agenda. I shouldn't name call, you are right about that. BUT, I'm human and get so SICK TO DEATH of the left wing's UNORGANIZED and GRABASTIC agenda. They have no real issues to argue over because they are SSOOOOO completely out of the loop of reality. They don't pick their battles wisely....they run around like a bunch of unorganized squawking chickens....making a lot of noise but not really getting anything done. Now....argue about something that has a direct effect upon yourself.....like the Massachussetts tax burden. You bitch about this country and GW Bush, and maybe you should bitch about Ted Kennedy's fat, slovenly ass as he sits back and runs one of the MOST taxed states in the union.....then you can tell me what a good guy he is and what a great state Mass. is. Maybe you and your cronies should concentrate more on that crooked shithole state that you live in and less on things that do not directly effect you. Learn to crawl before you walk is all that I'm saying. Hope this didn't offend you or damage your self esteem. I'm just being honest. |
| _______________________________________________ [Mar 11,2006 2:04pm - slowlypeelingtheflesh ""] Hoser said:You have yet to make any valid points, my dear. Who gives a shit if these Arab scum get tortured? If it saves 1 single American life, I'm all for it. What if it saved the life of one of your parents, or a loved one? You see, left wingers only bitch about things that don't directly effect them. I'm for American lives, that's all. I could give a shit about some dune monkey's personal feelings. I could give a shit about your sobbing for the terrorists. I could give a shit about the ACLU and their twisted agenda. I shouldn't name call, you are right about that. BUT, I'm human and get so SICK TO DEATH of the left wing's UNORGANIZED and GRABASTIC agenda. They have no real issues to argue over because they are SSOOOOO completely out of the loop of reality. They don't pick their battles wisely....they run around like a bunch of unorganized squawking chickens....making a lot of noise but not really getting anything done. Now....argue about something that has a direct effect upon yourself.....like the Massachussetts tax burden. You bitch about this country and GW Bush, and maybe you should bitch about Ted Kennedy's fat, slovenly ass as he sits back and runs one of the MOST taxed states in the union.....then you can tell me what a good guy he is and what a great state Mass. is. Maybe you and your cronies should concentrate more on that crooked shithole state that you live in and less on things that do not directly effect you. Learn to crawl before you walk is all that I'm saying. Hope this didn't offend you or damage your self esteem. I'm just being honest. The problem with you is the first few lines. Things like "Who gives a shit if these Arab scum get tortured?" and " I'm for American lives, that's all." Having an outlook like that is fucking ridiculous. I hope you get your head chopped off. This is exactly why terror groups hate America, because of assholes like you. |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 11,2006 2:40pm - ShadowSD ""] Hoser, If you believe in saving American lives, you wouldn't talk like that. Here is the central point that conservatives don't understand: Not everyone over there is either a supporter of America or a terrorist. Some people lean one way or the other, and most are right in the middle and trust neither side. Every time America is perceived the way you just made us sound, those who lean towards us inch towards the middle, those in the middle began to lean away from us, and those in poverty who lean away from us become great recruitment targets for Al Queda, where they WILL kill American soldiers and civilians. Now does that mean we should budge an inch in our policies to appease the terrorists? FUCK NO. Those who are already terrorists have made their choice, and they're not going back, so fuck 'em. We're at war, and treating them like anything but enemies is living in a fantasy land. But, antagonizing the other BILLION Muslims who are in the middle is like giving Bin Laden military aid every day. The fact that we're losing a public relations battle to some "dune monkeys" that kill civilians should give you a clue as to how poor our foreign policy is. 9/11 proved that we are vulnerable, that what goes on in the desert halfway across the world DOES affect us, so why do we insist on poking the bear when that's EXACTLY WHAT AL QAEDA WANTS. The bottom line is this: If the terrorists successfully frame this war as Christian vs. Muslim, WE LOSE, and if we frame this war as civilization vs. anarchy, WE WIN. That's it. THAT'S IT. We had every ability to win that argument in 2001, and we still have a shot, but right now we are LOSING. Now ask yourself, which side of the argument does it help when Americans tell the world they could give a shit about some dune monkey's personal feelings? And which side does it help when Americans say only American lives are important, when the terrorists are saying only Muslim lives are important? If a neutral Muslim hears both of those things, why the hell should they side with us? Would you? Now I don't think this is your intention at all, you have legitimate anger against immoral fucks who would kill all of us if they had a chance. I just think you haven't had the opportunity to hear these facts before. I just hope for the sake of American lives that you and all conservatives will take a minute and give what I've said here some thought before automatically reverting back to your positions. The truth isn't pretty, but every time you say things that reinforce the terrorists' perception of this war, you are giving them a gift in American blood. |
| _______________________________________ [Mar 11,2006 3:49pm - Y_Ddraig_Goch ""] I like the vikings better than the English, Danelaw for life baby |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 11,2006 6:44pm - HailTheLeaf ""] Hoser said:You have yet to make any valid points, my dear. Who gives a shit if these Arab scum get tortured? If it saves 1 single American life, I'm all for it. What if it saved the life of one of your parents, or a loved one? You see, left wingers only bitch about things that don't directly effect them. I'm for American lives, that's all. I could give a shit about some dune monkey's personal feelings. I could give a shit about your sobbing for the terrorists. I could give a shit about the ACLU and their twisted agenda. I shouldn't name call, you are right about that. BUT, I'm human and get so SICK TO DEATH of the left wing's UNORGANIZED and GRABASTIC agenda. They have no real issues to argue over because they are SSOOOOO completely out of the loop of reality. They don't pick their battles wisely....they run around like a bunch of unorganized squawking chickens....making a lot of noise but not really getting anything done. Now....argue about something that has a direct effect upon yourself.....like the Massachussetts tax burden. You bitch about this country and GW Bush, and maybe you should bitch about Ted Kennedy's fat, slovenly ass as he sits back and runs one of the MOST taxed states in the union.....then you can tell me what a good guy he is and what a great state Mass. is. Maybe you and your cronies should concentrate more on that crooked shithole state that you live in and less on things that do not directly effect you. Learn to crawl before you walk is all that I'm saying. Hope this didn't offend you or damage your self esteem. I'm just being honest. Hey Hoser, explain why you think the lives of the people who fell out of their mother on this continent are worth more than those of people who happened to fall out of their mother in the middle east? I'm dying to hear your rational on this one...also, how can they be the "terrorists" if we invaded their fucking country? Those people have never threatened us, never bombed us, never threatened war, until our country fucked with them. They are defending themselves, and doing a damn good job of it, I'm sure you would fight also if someone invaded your state and napalmed your children, somehow I doubt you'd buy it if they occupied your city, blew your house off the map, shot your wife and said "we're here to bring you freedom!". I don't live in MA anymore, I moved over 2 years ago, I think all taxation is theft, especially if that tax money is used to kill other people instead of help them, or make the already rich, richer. I don't like Ted Kennedy because he's well aware that federal income tax is illegal, but does nothing to stand up and say so. |
| _______________________________ [Mar 11,2006 8:05pm - Hoser ""] Ok......to answer your 1st question: Because THIS is my country. If I were born elsewhere, I would do anything to save the people of THAT country. #2 Did you forget Sept. 11th, Pan Am flight 301 over Lockerby, Scotland, the 1st twin tower bombing, the USS Cole bombing....shall I go on? To the rest of the assholes that posted their silly responses, like them hoping that I get my head cut off....come cut it off....I'll gut you and your family. I was making a point and now realize that arguing with you dumbasses is completely pointless. What you assholes realize is that me and many like me really don't give a shit what the rest of the world thinks of us. Thats why I don't dress like you slowlypeelingyourdick. I don't try to have the most sickly metal name on here.....I wear more than just black, and I don't care what any other country thinks of us....and neither do said countries care what we think of them! Your argument and comment were just plain stupid. |
| ________________________________________________ [Mar 11,2006 8:10pm - whiskey_weed_and_women ""] Hoser said:Don't forget your love for the loser left wing.......ever notice that the loser left wing idealists all smoke weed and embrace the hippy lifestyle? Now THATS who should be running this country....HAHAHAHAHAHA. [img] I AM STRAIGHT EDGE, I AM STRAIGHT EDGE !!!! |
| _______________________________ [Mar 11,2006 8:11pm - Hoser ""] ShadowSD said:Hoser, If you believe in saving American lives, you wouldn't talk like that. Here is the central point that conservatives don't understand: Not everyone over there is either a supporter of America or a terrorist. Some people lean one way or the other, and most are right in the middle and trust neither side. Every time America is perceived the way you just made us sound, those who lean towards us inch towards the middle, those in the middle began to lean away from us, and those in poverty who lean away from us become great recruitment targets for Al Queda, where they WILL kill American soldiers and civilians. Now does that mean we should budge an inch in our policies to appease the terrorists? FUCK NO. Those who are already terrorists have made their choice, and they're not going back, so fuck 'em. We're at war, and treating them like anything but enemies is living in a fantasy land. But, antagonizing the other BILLION Muslims who are in the middle is like giving Bin Laden military aid every day. The fact that we're losing a public relations battle to some "dune monkeys" that kill civilians should give you a clue as to how poor our foreign policy is. 9/11 proved that we are vulnerable, that what goes on in the desert halfway across the world DOES affect us, so why do we insist on poking the bear when that's EXACTLY WHAT AL QAEDA WANTS. The bottom line is this: If the terrorists successfully frame this war as Christian vs. Muslim, WE LOSE, and if we frame this war as civilization vs. anarchy, WE WIN. That's it. THAT'S IT. We had every ability to win that argument in 2001, and we still have a shot, but right now we are LOSING. Now ask yourself, which side of the argument does it help when Americans tell the world they could give a shit about some dune monkey's personal feelings? And which side does it help when Americans say only American lives are important, when the terrorists are saying only Muslim lives are important? If a neutral Muslim hears both of those things, why the hell should they side with us? Would you? Now I don't think this is your intention at all, you have legitimate anger against immoral fucks who would kill all of us if they had a chance. I just think you haven't had the opportunity to hear these facts before. I just hope for the sake of American lives that you and all conservatives will take a minute and give what I've said here some thought before automatically reverting back to your positions. The truth isn't pretty, but every time you say things that reinforce the terrorists' perception of this war, you are giving them a gift in American blood. All good points.....and all points taken. Thanks for having the balls to explain the position. I respect you for that, and you sound educated; which I also respect. |
| _______________________________ [Mar 11,2006 8:12pm - Hoser ""] Dude, John Edwards is a psycho. |
| ________________________________________________ [Mar 11,2006 8:13pm - whiskey_weed_and_women ""] Hoser said:Dude, John Edwards is a psycho. you sir clearly miss the joke. |
| _______________________________ [Mar 11,2006 8:17pm - Hoser ""] Enlighten me please. |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 11,2006 9:19pm - HailTheLeaf ""] Hoser said:Ok......to answer your 1st question: Because THIS is my country. If I were born elsewhere, I would do anything to save the people of THAT country. #2 Did you forget Sept. 11th, Pan Am flight 301 over Lockerby, Scotland, the 1st twin tower bombing, the USS Cole bombing....shall I go on? please do, since none of those incidents had anything to do with Iraq... |
| _______________________________________________ [Mar 11,2006 10:30pm - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] I think what Albert Camus said in a letter published in Combat in 1948 in which he defended his portrayal of Franco's regime in a play of his instead of a critique of Stalin's regime really applies to this arguement about torture. I don't remember the exact quote but it was something like "You have no right to criticize my decision to focus on Spain if you care about the suffering of another man only when he shares the same views as you." |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 12,2006 7:15am - ShadowSD ""] Hoser said: All good points.....and all points taken. Thanks for having the balls to explain the position. I respect you for that, and you sound educated; which I also respect. Thanks man, I respect you too for hearing out the arguments and considering a different point of view. More liberals to need wake up and realize that just as America is unnecessarily getting trounced in a PR war with its enemies, progressives are unnecessarily getting trounced in a PR battle with neo-cons. Why? Because we fall victim to our own presumptions. Listen to how far right conservatives convey themselves online, on cable news, and talk radio. They make their points clearly, concisely, and thoroughly, leaving very little potential ambiguity. But liberals with a public platforms think that the centrist and conservative elements of their positions are automatically presumed by the viewer. They are not. I'll give an example: Note where I said above that "We're at war, and treating our enemies as anything but is living in a fantasy world". In the past, I might not have included that sentence, presuming well everyone thinks that way, so why state the obvious? WRONG. Why would a far right conservative automatically assume the best about someone on the other side? Had I not included that sentence in my last post, my viewpoint might not have been taken as seriously by a conservative, and my entire argument might have been dismissed as the deluded words of a nieve terrorist sympathizer. I see this happen to progressives over and over (it's happening to HailtheLeaf in this very thread), and by the time they make it clear that they are not terrorist sympathizers, all the conservatives have already stopped listening to them. Under those circumstances, the smartest progressive cannot hope to outdebate the gremlins in Ann Coulter's vagina. (Let me make it clear, I'm not trying to say that liberals should try to sell themselves as something they're not, that's why neither Gore and Kerry were able to win the Presidency. They acted too much like watered-down Republicans in the general election, and therefore a large percentage of liberals never turned out to vote for them. No one of any political persuasion wants to elect a boring, neutered conformist with no personality. What I'm saying is that progressives should be honest and forthcoming about all their positions, even if all those positions are not liberal) In summary: for progressives, to include centrist or conservative positions that you believe in is good, but dwelling on those positions to the point where you're not using the majority of your time to make progressive arguments is bad. Until we can learn to strike that balance, we will lose every debate, even in situations where all the facts are in our favor. |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 12,2006 12:01pm - HailTheLeaf ""] Ann Coulter HAS a vagina? I definately want proof on this one... |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 12,2006 1:42pm - vomitious ""] Yes, I believe that she does, and from what I've been told, it's cleaner than your moose knuckle/stank box, too! |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 12,2006 2:17pm - PatMeebles ""] You people realize that people in gauntanamo lie intentionally just to make us look bad? When the actual study of how many real korans were desecrated, they found that the handful of incidents involving US soldiers were already prosecuted in a military court before the Newsweek story broke. The majority of the other incidents involved prisoners desecrating their korans themselves. These people are Machiavellian by nature. Even if it goes against what they say they believe, if it results in a blow for us or one step closer to implementing sharia law worldwide, then they'll do it. |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 12,2006 2:18pm - PatMeebles ""] By the way, is it now tortue to not only deny a meal when prisoners don't cooperate but to also force feed prisoners when they try to starve themselves? |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 13,2006 4:14am - ShadowSD ""] HailTheLeaf said:Ann Coulter HAS a vagina? I definately want proof on this one... It's actually more of a gremlin gestational sac, but since it's crawling with syphilis, vagina seemed more appropriate. |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 13,2006 4:50am - ShadowSD ""] PatMeebles said:You people realize that people in gauntanamo lie intentionally just to make us look bad? When the actual study of how many real korans were desecrated, they found that the handful of incidents involving US soldiers were already prosecuted in a military court before the Newsweek story broke. The majority of the other incidents involved prisoners desecrating their korans themselves. These people are Machiavellian by nature. Even if it goes against what they say they believe, if it results in a blow for us or one step closer to implementing sharia law worldwide, then they'll do it. Absolutely. I have no doubt that many of the prisoner's allegations are boldface lies. However, governments often go against their own morals in wartime, including our own (from the McCarthyist witchhunts of the cold war to the Japanese internment camps of WWII where innocent citizens and residents of the US were held for years, and some even died). So logically, the burden of proof is on the government that there isn't torture going on, both historically speaking, and particularly after the Abu Gharaib scandal. We may not like it, especially when we know terrorists are lying and manipulating the situation to their advantage, but it is the fault of our own policies in the past that we are stuck in this situation. Ultimately though, those terrorists behind bars are where they belong, and they're not going anywhere. If they lie and deceive, I can't say I'm the least bit surprised or disappointed, and neither are any other Americans. But when OUR government that WE pay for is under suspicion of torturing prisoners, I have every right to be outraged, particularly when that leads to increased instances of tortured Americans and a climate that is more condusive to terrorist recruitment. Rumsfeld recently said something retarded like we allow the UN inspectors to go to the prison but not to talk to the prisoners, because they might lie. Well, with that logic, no prisons should ever be inspected because some prisoners will always lie to improve their situation. Just because some people are lying, it doesn't mean that no one could be telling the truth, and it certainly doesn't mean our government is infallible. |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 13,2006 10:10am - PatMeebles ""] I don't think terrorist recruitment has gone up. The number of suicide bombings in Iraq have plummeted. If there were more terrorists, there would definitely be more suicide bombers, since Zarqawi wouldn't have to worry about losing resources. Plus, the Sunnis in the Anbar province, even after the sectarian "civil war" (I didn't know a week counted as civil war), openly declared war on al qaeda, and are driving them out of western Iraq. |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 13,2006 10:11am - PatMeebles ""] Oh, and I forgot to read your last part. The UN team only relied on prisoner testimony. They didn't even bother to get any info from the government. |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 13,2006 1:56pm - HailTheLeaf ""] PatMeebles said:I don't think terrorist recruitment has gone up. The number of suicide bombings in Iraq have plummeted. If there were more terrorists, there would definitely be more suicide bombers, since Zarqawi wouldn't have to worry about losing resources. Plus, the Sunnis in the Anbar province, even after the sectarian "civil war" (I didn't know a week counted as civil war), openly declared war on al qaeda, and are driving them out of western Iraq. You don't think terrorist recruitment has gone up because of our invasion, the continued occupation of Iraq, and the way we treat the people there? That's so absurd I don't even know what to say to it...We're created an entirely new terrorist state, a recuitment camp bigger than Afganistan ever was, and a whole new generation of pissed off fanatics. Next will be the civil war... |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 13,2006 3:35pm - ShadowSD ""] Exactly. PatMeebles said:I don't think terrorist recruitment has gone up. The number of suicide bombings in Iraq have plummeted. If there were more terrorists, there would definitely be more suicide bombers, since Zarqawi wouldn't have to worry about losing resources. Plus, the Sunnis in the Anbar province, even after the sectarian "civil war" (I didn't know a week counted as civil war), openly declared war on al qaeda, and are driving them out of western Iraq. I don't know if you've gotten the chance to go abroad in recent years, Pat, but hatred of America across the board has gone up so much during the Bush administration, it's unreal. And clearly, the more and more people hate America, the more sympathetic they will be to our enemies. It's true that the increase of sectarian violence in Iraq can go hand in hand with a decrease of suicide bombings by Al Qaeda and other foreign based terrorist groups. And why not? Zarqawi and Bin Laden want chaos in Iraq, they don't care how it happens, and once an internal conflict picks up momentum, they're not going to waste suicide bombers when chaos is already self-sustinent. It may seem hard to understand, since suicide bombers seem to be totally expendable by definition, but their leaders are not going to waste their only weapons when it gains them nothing; they may be crazy, but they're not stupid. After all, Al Qaeda killed 3000 Americans with just 20 terrorists. They could have sent more of course, but they didn't, only as many as they had to. Also, you assume that Zarqawi would use more suicide bombers if he had enough to spare, but that suggests that the only place he ever intends to use suicide bombers is Iraq; I assure you that is not the case. These people want to bring chaos to the entire world until everyone submits to their dogma, and they will use each suicide bomber only to cause as much damage as possible. Furthermore, as you yourself suggested, when foreign fighters continue to suicide bomb indiscriminantly once a civil war begins, it eventually backfires to unite citizens against them in force; in fact, a common enemy is the only external force that can stop a civil war once it begins. (I don't think that has happened yet, though, since like you I don't believe that a civil war has even begun yet in earnest - but with the way things are going, civil war does seem more and more imminent). But again, and unfortunately, I don't think that Zarqawi will be stupid enough to attack indiscriminantly and unite Iraqis against him if civil war breaks out; rather he will sit back and watch when it suits him, and only attack in ways that will aggrevate the situation. Also, at no time in history has the military strength of an army been accurately measured soley based on the level of its military activity at a given moment. In the case of international terrorism, where there is no central organization but rather countless unassociated splinter groups, the current degree of military activity tells us even less about the recruitment and troop levels of our enemies. PatMeebles said:Oh, and I forgot to read your last part. The UN team only relied on prisoner testimony. They didn't even bother to get any info from the government. The UN team didn't go to Guantanamo at all, if you believe our Secretary of Defense. In fact, that was the Rumsfeld complaint I was addressing in the first place; it began with him saying hey we invited the UN Inspectors but they never came to look, so how can they judge? Then, when challenged with the fact that the UN Inspectors didn't see any point in looking if they couldn't talk to the prisoners, Rumsfeld gave the same reasoning as you did earlier: "people in guantanamo lie intentionally just to make us look bad". |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 14,2006 1:14am - PatMeebles ""] You know, I really don't care about elitist europeans who hate us. They keep talking about oil, but they were the ones who voted against an iraqi invasion because their leaders were bribed with oil. They talk about tolerance, but they have completely abandoned their immigrant population, and their nihilistic moral relativism has opened the door for islamofascists to take root and create autonomous regions around places like Paris where sharia law is openly enforced. They say we let our poor and helpless die after Katrina yet they don't do anything about a heat wave that killed thousands of elderly. After the riots in Paris started, it took Chirac a whole week to appear on television once. They talk about how America destroys people's civil liberties, but places like the Netherlands are debating (at the very least) putting security cameras on every street in order to maintain order, a la England. The reason I don't think a sectarian civil war will break out is because of your predicitions about Zarqawi. Being stupid and indiscriminately bombing Iraqis and other Middle Eastern peoples is EXACTLY what he's been doing since day 1. The civilian population is already completely united against him. Combine that with Sunni acceptance of and even enthusiasm about their future role in Iraqi society, and you have the makings of a stable society. The only way a real civil war begins is if the Iraqi army falls apart. That doesn't look like it's going to happen. They've done a phenomenal job in securing the peace, especially after the mosque bombing. Al Qaeda may be very patient people, but as intel on them is gathered, we know they've been completely decimated in places all around the world, as early as right after 9/11. Support for terrorism dropped (at least before the cartoon fiasco) according to the PEW research center (run by Madeline Albright, no friend of Bush). That's all my sleep deprived mind can think of now. |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 14,2006 9:18am - soloman nli ""] HailTheLeaf said:PatMeebles said:I don't think terrorist recruitment has gone up. The number of suicide bombings in Iraq have plummeted. If there were more terrorists, there would definitely be more suicide bombers, since Zarqawi wouldn't have to worry about losing resources. Plus, the Sunnis in the Anbar province, even after the sectarian "civil war" (I didn't know a week counted as civil war), openly declared war on al qaeda, and are driving them out of western Iraq. You don't think terrorist recruitment has gone up because of our invasion, the continued occupation of Iraq, and the way we treat the people there? That's so absurd I don't even know what to say to it...We're created an entirely new terrorist state, a recuitment camp bigger than Afganistan ever was, and a whole new generation of pissed off fanatics. Next will be the civil war... Where you getting your stats that say terrorist recruitment is up? We didn't create a terrorist state, we created an ally. |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 15,2006 9:25am - ShadowSD ""] PatMeebles said:You know, I really don't care about elitist europeans who hate us. You assume I was talking about Europe in particular, I was not. There are reasonable, enlightened people scattered all over the world, of which those who are European are only a fraction, and of which those who are elitist are an even smaller minority. If reasonable people around the world are finding legitimate cause to view the US as just as much as a threat to them as terrorism, I don't want to know what the unreasonable ones are thinking. Take Iraq, for example. If reasonable people there don't side with us, where will the loyalties of their new military and police force be? From the AP just a couple hours ago: "Eleven people — most women and children — were killed when a house was bombed during a U.S. raid north of Baghdad early Wednesday, police and relatives said. Associated Press photographs showed the bodies of two men, five children and four other covered figures arriving at the hospital accompanied by grief-stricken relatives. 'The killed family was not part of the resistance; they were women and children," Ahmed Khalaf said. 'The Americans have promised us a better life, but we get only death.'" As stories like this begin to accumulate, reasonable people's opinions do turn against us, and we SHOULD care, because as I originally pointed out, each time everyone inches down the spectrum away from us, neutral people become agitated, agitated people become sympathetic to our enemies, and terrorist sympathizers become terrorist recruits. PatMeebles said:They keep talking about oil, but they were the ones who voted against an iraqi invasion because their leaders were bribed with oil. Even if you take oil out of the equation, they still would have been against overthrowing Saddam Hussein, as would have anyone with the least bit of common sense, because of two key factors: an inevitable civil war that makes the mission unwinnable, and the fact that once you go, you have to win. Those two put together create an inherant paradox, and EVERYONE in the civilized world (aside from the neo-cons) understood this years before we went, including George H.W. Bush, James Baker, and most Republicans. The only reason we created this terrible situation was because everyone was too chickenshit to stand up and say something in the post-9/11 climate. PatMeebles said:They talk about tolerance, but they have completely abandoned their immigrant population, and their nihilistic moral relativism has opened the door for islamofascists to take root and create autonomous regions around places like Paris where sharia law is openly enforced. You'll get no argument from me on this one. PatMeebles said:They say we let our poor and helpless die after Katrina yet they don't do anything about a heat wave that killed thousands of elderly. MRE's (Emergency Food and Water) are something the US military can get to anywhere within 24 hours, whereas combating a heat wave that efficiently is not possible. Had the US Military delivered MRE's to Katrina victims the day after the hurricane, and had some of them still died of heat stroke because of the 100 degree weather, I certainly wouldn't hold our government responsible for that. Despite the fact that we expect the state to make all reasonable and timely efforts to protect its citizens, there is a limit to how much we can expect the government to take care of us. PatMeebles said:They talk about how America destroys people's civil liberties, but places like the Netherlands are debating (at the very least) putting security cameras on every street in order to maintain order, a la England. Sweet, I can smoke weed and wave to the camera! Seriously though, is this any worse than the US leading the way in satellite technology that zooms in just as close as those security cameras. At least in the case of the street cameras, people know they're being watched... PatMeebles said:The reason I don't think a sectarian civil war will break out is because of your predicitions about Zarqawi. Being stupid and indiscriminately bombing Iraqis and other Middle Eastern peoples is EXACTLY what he's been doing since day 1. Indeed. But note that I said above that indiscriminate bombing once a civil war begins would backfire, eventually uniting both sides against external forces; however, until a civil war begins, chaos is the best catalyst, and there is no better way to achieve chaos than indiscriminate attacks. If you don't think a civil war will break out, this was posted just yesterday: "Baghdad Police Find 65 Bodies in 24 Hours AP - 5:22 am Police found at least 65 bodies in Baghdad in the past 24 hours, including 15 men bound and shot in an abandoned minibus, in a gruesome wave of apparent sectarian reprisal attacks, officials said Tuesday." And then, posted by the AP in just in the last couple of hours: "Iraq Edges Closer to Open Civil Warfare Iraqi authorities discovered at least 87 corpses — men shot to death execution-style — as Iraq edged closer to open civil warfare. Some of the bloodshed appeared to be retaliation for a bomb and mortar attack in the Sadr City slum that killed at least 58 people and wounded more than 200 two days earlier." PatMeebles said:Al Qaeda may be very patient people, but as intel on them is gathered, we know they've been completely decimated in places all around the world, as early as right after 9/11. Support for terrorism dropped (at least before the cartoon fiasco) according to the PEW research center (run by Madeline Albright, no friend of Bush). The problem with that is that if you listen to every qualified analyst of the cartoon fiasco, they all say the same thing, that it was not a cause of tension but rather an effect; an indicator that is symbolic of growing animosity between East and West (which as I have pointed out, is just how Al Qaeda has wanted to frame this war from the beginning, as opposed to civilization vs. anarchy, which is the way we must frame it in order to win). The number of poor, uneducated, young Muslim men in the world with no hope of advancement exceeds the entire population of the United States, and the worse American policies look to them, the more vulnerable all of them become to jihadist recruitment. This effect is so widespread and scattered, it's impossible for any research organization to get an accurate reading of it. |
| _______________________________________ [Mar 15,2006 12:50pm - hungtableed ""] ShadowSD said: Ultimately though, those terrorists behind bars are where they belong, and they're not going anywhere. If they lie and deceive, I can't say I'm the least bit surprised or disappointed, and neither are any other Americans. But when OUR government that WE pay for is under suspicion of torturing prisoners, I have every right to be outraged, particularly when that leads to increased instances of tortured Americans and a climate that is more condusive to terrorist recruitment. Just because some people are lying, it doesn't mean that no one could be telling the truth, and it certainly doesn't mean our government is infallible. hmmmmm, seems like you're more willing to give the sub human arab terrorist head cutters the benefit of the doubt because, well, afterall, our government is capable of lying as well. So, you're worried about increased recruitment in Al Qeada huh? I bet you were one lead the charge, along with the un-American un-Civil Liberties Union, who fought a bloody battle the release 100+ sum odd new abu garib photos. ....now, why do you think the U.S. govn't didn't want them released? because we'd see shit we never saw/heard about? ---NOPE! there was nothing new, same shit, naked bodies getting barked at by dogs. IT WAS BECAUSE SHIT LIKE THAT AND FAKE STORIES (ughhh hemm ones made up by prisoners) ABOUT KORANS BEING PISSED AND SHAAT ON MAKE BEAUTIFUL COVER ART FOR AL QAEDA RECRUITMENT FLYERS. ohhh, also, shit like "Saddams torture chambers have been re-opened....under U.S. management" being said by elected officials who obviously were never was given the 101 of Saddams torture chambers doesn't help us either. |