Hey! Remember when W said he'd be a unifying president?[views:7106][posts:96]_____________________________________ [Nov 17,2005 5:04pm - Josh_Martin ""] BornSoVile said:Josh_Martin said: Regardless, I fully believe this war is just there to keep people too busy to notice the real crap Bush is ramming through congress. Just look at this thread. |
| ___________________________________ [Nov 17,2005 5:12pm - Anything ""] Buck fush....lying,greedy, dicksucking puppet. |
| ____________________________________ [Nov 17,2005 5:12pm - BornSoVile ""] I doubt that Saddam was worse. With the amount of information being with held from us, there is no telling, but from what i've read about NK I believe it's alot worse. |
| ______________________________________________ [Nov 17,2005 5:42pm - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] Kim Jong Il doesn't necessarily kill anyone who tries to leave NK, he just sends them to one of the hundreds of concentration camps in NK where prisoners are routinely used as guinea pigs for chemical weapons. The idea that Saddam was worse than Kim Jong Il is absolutely ludicrous. Look at the threats posed by the two at the beginning of the Iraq War Saddam -Tortures his own people -Starves his own people -No chemical weapons -No nuclear weapons -A crippled military (remember the fight the vaunted Republican Guard put up?) Reduced from 7 armored division to 1 and 20 infantry divisions reduced to 17, no fly zones etc. -Contained by his neighbors, incapable of attacking Kuwait Kim Jong Il -Tortures his own people and supports his economy with a massive labor camp network -Starves his own people -Has chemical weapons, testing them to improve their effectiveness -Is developing nuclear weapons, has ICBMs -Commands the fifth largest military in the world (over 1,000,000 troops)99 divisions to be exact, all ready to attack South Korea -Faces opposition from 36,000 US and 685,000 South Korean troops |
| ________________________________________ [Nov 17,2005 6:10pm - DomesticTerror ""] BSV said: if the republicans are so concerned about bringing justice to people being oppressed or whatever, why aren't we doing anything about North Korea??? because North Korea isn't neighbors with Saudi Arabia. |
| ________________________________________ [Nov 17,2005 6:23pm - DomesticTerror ""] PatMeebles said:Some of your accusations are just ridiculous. You want to criticize the intelligence, fine. I don't care. I'm not saying that because you can't prove without a shadow of a doubt that Saddam was innocent proves that he was completely guilty. I'm just not convinced that Saddam was anywhere near innocent on any crimes he was accused of, given the evidence from the past 12 years and his noncompliance with the UN leading up to March 2003. Will someone tell me where Bush said that they have the exact coordinates of stockpiles? You know, those things can be MOVED. If Bush said he'd find them in a specific part of the country, then that's stupid even from a pro-war stance. . "He has weapons of mass destruction, the world's deadliest weapons, which pose a direct threat to the United States, our citizens and our friends and allies." -G.W. |
| _____________________________________ [Nov 17,2005 10:41pm - PatMeebles ""] DomesticTerror said:PatMeebles said:Some of your accusations are just ridiculous. You want to criticize the intelligence, fine. I don't care. I'm not saying that because you can't prove without a shadow of a doubt that Saddam was innocent proves that he was completely guilty. I'm just not convinced that Saddam was anywhere near innocent on any crimes he was accused of, given the evidence from the past 12 years and his noncompliance with the UN leading up to March 2003. Will someone tell me where Bush said that they have the exact coordinates of stockpiles? You know, those things can be MOVED. If Bush said he'd find them in a specific part of the country, then that's stupid even from a pro-war stance. . "He has weapons of mass destruction, the world's deadliest weapons, which pose a direct threat to the United States, our citizens and our friends and allies." -G.W. That's completely different than "you'll find them at x latitude and y longitude" I'll let Lawrence Wilkinson at the State Department under Powell make this next point. "I can’t tell you why the French, the Germans, the Brits, and us thought that most of the material, if not all of it, that we presented at the UN on 5 February 2003 was the truth. I can’t. I’ve wrestled with it. [But] when you see a satellite photograph of all the signs of the chemical-weapons ASP—Ammunition Supply Point—with chemical weapons, and you match all those signs with your matrix on what should show a chemical ASP, and they’re there, you have to conclude that it’s a chemical ASP, especially when you see the next satellite photograph which shows the UN inspectors wheeling in their white vehicles with black markings on them to that same ASP, and everything is changed, everything is clean. . . . But George [Tenet] was convinced, John McLaughlin [Tenet’s deputy] was convinced, that what we were presented [for Powell’s UN speech] was accurate." |
| _______________________________________________ [Nov 17,2005 10:57pm - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] BobNOMAAMRooney nli said:Kim Jong Il doesn't necessarily kill anyone who tries to leave NK, he just sends them to one of the hundreds of concentration camps in NK where prisoners are routinely used as guinea pigs for chemical weapons. The idea that Saddam was worse than Kim Jong Il is absolutely ludicrous. Look at the threats posed by the two at the beginning of the Iraq War Saddam -Tortures his own people -Starves his own people -No chemical weapons -No nuclear weapons -A crippled military (remember the fight the vaunted Republican Guard put up?) Reduced from 7 armored division to 1 and 20 infantry divisions reduced to 17, no fly zones etc. -Contained by his neighbors, incapable of attacking Kuwait Kim Jong Il -Tortures his own people and supports his economy with a massive labor camp network -Starves his own people -Has chemical weapons, testing them to improve their effectiveness -Is developing nuclear weapons, has ICBMs -Commands the fifth largest military in the world (over 1,000,000 troops)99 divisions to be exact, all ready to attack South Korea -Faces opposition from 36,000 US and 685,000 South Korean troops I forgot to mention that there was no regional power (such as Israel or Iran in Iraq's case) that would have opposed North Korea's power play (China is one of the DPRK's few supporters on the international level and would probably use the chaos created by a DPRK invasion of South Korea and Japan to occupy Taiwan, while Russia would probably remain neutral) That leaves the South Korean and US forces as the only opposition to the DPRK in the region (Japan's post-World War II constitution made it illegal for their military to be anything more than a small defense force). That's clearly a much larger threat to global security than a contained and weak Iraq. |
| _____________________________________ [Nov 17,2005 11:30pm - PatMeebles ""] While that's certainly a reasonable claim, I disagree, because bringing the war to China's doorsteps is probably in the least of China's desires. |
| _______________________________________________ [Nov 17,2005 11:39pm - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] PatMeebles said:While that's certainly a reasonable claim, I disagree, because bringing the war to China's doorsteps is probably in the least of China's desires. I don't think a war was needed in North Korea. I just think that rather than focusing on Iraq the US should have put most of those troops in Korea and at least slung a cruise missile or two at North Korea just to put Kim Jong Il in his place. As it is now we're total pushovers and the little prick knows he can say and do whatever the fuck he feels like without worrying about retaliation. |
| _____________________________________ [Nov 17,2005 11:50pm - PatMeebles ""] Well, I'm going to agree with the "saying" part, but not with the "doing." Our nuclear arsenal would completely wipe him out. |
| _______________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 12:00am - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] On the doing part, the North Korean military is constantly pulling divisions up to the DMZ just to flex their muscles while the South Koreans and US troops can only watch. Bringing in more troops and firing on North Korean divisions when they get cute like that would go a long way in reigning Kim Jong Il in and making him more responsive to international pressure. |
| ______________________________ [Nov 18,2005 6:27am - wade ""] the Tax cuts were extended and, I believe, further protected yesterday. fuckin ridiculous. yeah, lets cut taxes AND slash spending on programs that help the neediest Americans...if you think the cuts are to help the middle and lower classes, you're as dumb as Bush, Inc. thinks you are. |
| ____________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 6:31am - Anonogoat ""] it's too early for this bull shit |
| ____________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 9:05am - PatMeebles ""] wade said:the Tax cuts were extended and, I believe, further protected yesterday. fuckin ridiculous. yeah, lets cut taxes AND slash spending on programs that help the neediest Americans...if you think the cuts are to help the middle and lower classes, you're as dumb as Bush, Inc. thinks you are. Actually, while Bush has cut taxes (which is why the defecit is down by 100 billion, by the way), he's increased spending, especially on poverty entitlements (somewhere in the 30% range) and education (somewhere in the 50% range). |
| ____________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 9:07am - PatMeebles ""] By the way, by cutting taxes, he opened up the market to be able to create more jobs, which it's created twice as many as were lost from 9/11 and the recession. And, before you say "but they're all McDonald's chefs," 80% of those created jobs were in the middle and higher tax brackets. |
| ____________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 9:13am - Radical_Dirt_Biker ""] my mom says that liberals are the lying scum of the earth that resort to name calling when they dont get their way i have to agree with her because i always see them on tv name calling and i think that they are acting just like immatuer children. im glad he won the race now i get to hear you all cry a lot about it LOL!!! |
| ______________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 9:15am - Radical Snowmobiler ""] Is this the same mom of yours that I busted a knac knac off of her titties last night? |
| ____________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 9:26am - Radical_Dirt_Biker ""] hey it sounds like your a faker trying to be radical like me but guess what everyone knows that your a fraudZ0rs. if your so hot why dont you hit turn 4 at Teh Razer with me sometime and well see how long you stay up on your bike LOL!! not long ill bet. so shut your trap before i turn it into a burm and pop a superman off of your fat chin pigZ0r. |
| ______________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 9:44am - Radical Snowmobiler ""] Whatever fagot I got wicked sick air off yur moms titties and popped a backflip right on her face. Teh Razer is where all the gay kids who can't hang with the big boys ride. If you want to see sick you should come by my house in Derry sometime, my step-dad built some wicked sick ramps so I'd like him more than my real dad and there's a sick trail behind my house. Just to clarify when I said I popped a backflip on your moms face I meant I busted a load in your moms eye. |
| ___________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 10:03am - largefreakatzero ""] You guys need to wait until the lakes freeze and have a drag race showdown -- dirt bike vs. sled. It would be awwwwwwzzzzzzzome! |
| _____________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 10:44am - babyshaker ""] who will peoples loyalties go to the radical dirt biker or the radical snowmobiler only time will tell in this epic battle of titans |
| _______________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 11:01am - Radical Snowmobiler ""] There's a lake right behind the Burger King off of 93 where I work. I'm gonna fuel up on chicken fries and pwn your faggot ass, then I'll bust a sick flare off your dads dickhole. You'd better watch your lips when you're blowing your dad to feel better about losing to me. |
| _________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 11:22am - DestroyYouAlot ""] Radical Snowmobiler said:I'm gonna fuel up on chicken fries and pwn your faggot ass, then I'll bust a sick flare off your dads dickhole. Quote of the year. |
| ____________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 5:23pm - Radical_Dirt_Biker ""] ya, go ahead and think that your so funny but you wont even know what hit you when i friggin peel out on your chin after busting a sweet table top off your dads queer asshole. dont be afraid of his butt drippings because all of the protein in the man milk leaking out of his gaping pucker will help heal the wound on your chin in a jiff. so why dont you stop being a fraWd trying to steel my name just meet me at Teh Razer or are you not man enuff didnt think so LOL looser! |
| ______________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 5:33pm - Radical Snowmobiler ""] RDB, you sound more and more like a DB. That's minus the radical in case your gay ass can't read. You fucken sold out and you don't understand what it is to be an extreme sports warrior. Like this one time I was tearing up the trail behind my real dad's and I hit sick air off your little sisters asshole then I turned the sled around and hit an even sicker hart attack off of her pussy. My air was so sick that it broke her hymen and made her have her period and knocked her up all at the same time, five months later (instead of nine because my air was so friggin sick) your "little brother" was born. We can settle this in the parking lot at the Tsongas Arena the next time Slipknot are in town or the lake behind burger king. By the way, Mushroomhead is a zillion times better than Fagknot anyway. |
| _____________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 5:47pm - Hooker nli ""] "behind my real dad's" that was awesome. |
| ____________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 6:21pm - Radical_Dirt_Biker ""] like i said your a fraWd stealing on my name so why dont you go hit the trail like an old westerner on the oregon trail and stay outta da park 'fore you get dysentary. ill jump your chin so hard that ill knock the "mobile" outta your name and your friends will just have to call you "snow" like your favorite rapper. so why dont you go back to bed you juggal0 luvah, cause you cant hit it with L Park ok? |
| _______________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 6:22pm - slowlypeelingtheflesh ""] PatMeebles said:By the way, by cutting taxes, he opened up the market to be able to create more jobs, which it's created twice as many as were lost from 9/11 and the recession. And, before you say "but they're all McDonald's chefs," 80% of those created jobs were in the middle and higher tax brackets. Only to be outsourced to India for pieces of rice a day. |
| ____________________________________________ [Nov 18,2005 6:24pm - Radical_Dirt_Biker ""] you guys talk too much politics why dont you idi0tZ run for the president and shut up already that way all the metal kidZ can hate you too. PWNT! |
| ____________________________________ [Nov 19,2005 2:04am - PatMeebles ""] slowlypeelingtheflesh said:PatMeebles said:By the way, by cutting taxes, he opened up the market to be able to create more jobs, which it's created twice as many as were lost from 9/11 and the recession. And, before you say "but they're all McDonald's chefs," 80% of those created jobs were in the middle and higher tax brackets. Only to be outsourced to India for pieces of rice a day. Ummm, no, because then those jobs wouldn't be counted as created. |
| ______________________________________________ [Nov 19,2005 2:27am - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] PatMeebles said:DomesticTerror said:PatMeebles said:Some of your accusations are just ridiculous. You want to criticize the intelligence, fine. I don't care. I'm not saying that because you can't prove without a shadow of a doubt that Saddam was innocent proves that he was completely guilty. I'm just not convinced that Saddam was anywhere near innocent on any crimes he was accused of, given the evidence from the past 12 years and his noncompliance with the UN leading up to March 2003. Will someone tell me where Bush said that they have the exact coordinates of stockpiles? You know, those things can be MOVED. If Bush said he'd find them in a specific part of the country, then that's stupid even from a pro-war stance. . "He has weapons of mass destruction, the world's deadliest weapons, which pose a direct threat to the United States, our citizens and our friends and allies." -G.W. That's completely different than "you'll find them at x latitude and y longitude" I'll let Lawrence Wilkinson at the State Department under Powell make this next point. "I can’t tell you why the French, the Germans, the Brits, and us thought that most of the material, if not all of it, that we presented at the UN on 5 February 2003 was the truth. I can’t. I’ve wrestled with it. [But] when you see a satellite photograph of all the signs of the chemical-weapons ASP—Ammunition Supply Point—with chemical weapons, and you match all those signs with your matrix on what should show a chemical ASP, and they’re there, you have to conclude that it’s a chemical ASP, especially when you see the next satellite photograph which shows the UN inspectors wheeling in their white vehicles with black markings on them to that same ASP, and everything is changed, everything is clean. . . . But George [Tenet] was convinced, John McLaughlin [Tenet’s deputy] was convinced, that what we were presented [for Powell’s UN speech] was accurate." While not directly attributed to Bush, before the war began Rumsfeld said "We know exactly where the weapons of mass destruction are hidden." That sounds an awful lot like "wmds are at x latitude and y longitude" As for the Bush increasing the percentage of Pell grants. Yes he did increase the amount of Pell grants awarded, but did not fund them. So while 30% more people are recieving Pell Grants the amount awarded is much smaller. The eductation funding increases are pretty invalid as most of it goes to fund testing and is tied directly to a school's performance on standardized tests. The schools which need the funding the most do not recieve it because of their subpar performance on the tests, while the schools which do not need the funding reap the benefits. Bush might be spending 50% more on education, but the quality of education gap cannot be solved by throwing more money at and drilling students. Bush is spending more on poverty entitlements because the poverty rate is growing under his administration. http://mediamatters.org/items/200509140004 |
| _____________________________________ [Nov 19,2005 11:10am - PatMeebles ""] BobNOMAAMRooney nli said:PatMeebles said:DomesticTerror said:PatMeebles said:Some of your accusations are just ridiculous. You want to criticize the intelligence, fine. I don't care. I'm not saying that because you can't prove without a shadow of a doubt that Saddam was innocent proves that he was completely guilty. I'm just not convinced that Saddam was anywhere near innocent on any crimes he was accused of, given the evidence from the past 12 years and his noncompliance with the UN leading up to March 2003. Will someone tell me where Bush said that they have the exact coordinates of stockpiles? You know, those things can be MOVED. If Bush said he'd find them in a specific part of the country, then that's stupid even from a pro-war stance. . "He has weapons of mass destruction, the world's deadliest weapons, which pose a direct threat to the United States, our citizens and our friends and allies." -G.W. That's completely different than "you'll find them at x latitude and y longitude" I'll let Lawrence Wilkinson at the State Department under Powell make this next point. "I can’t tell you why the French, the Germans, the Brits, and us thought that most of the material, if not all of it, that we presented at the UN on 5 February 2003 was the truth. I can’t. I’ve wrestled with it. [But] when you see a satellite photograph of all the signs of the chemical-weapons ASP—Ammunition Supply Point—with chemical weapons, and you match all those signs with your matrix on what should show a chemical ASP, and they’re there, you have to conclude that it’s a chemical ASP, especially when you see the next satellite photograph which shows the UN inspectors wheeling in their white vehicles with black markings on them to that same ASP, and everything is changed, everything is clean. . . . But George [Tenet] was convinced, John McLaughlin [Tenet’s deputy] was convinced, that what we were presented [for Powell’s UN speech] was accurate." While not directly attributed to Bush, before the war began Rumsfeld said "We know exactly where the weapons of mass destruction are hidden." That sounds an awful lot like "wmds are at x latitude and y longitude" As for the Bush increasing the percentage of Pell grants. Yes he did increase the amount of Pell grants awarded, but did not fund them. So while 30% more people are recieving Pell Grants the amount awarded is much smaller. The eductation funding increases are pretty invalid as most of it goes to fund testing and is tied directly to a school's performance on standardized tests. The schools which need the funding the most do not recieve it because of their subpar performance on the tests, while the schools which do not need the funding reap the benefits. Bush might be spending 50% more on education, but the quality of education gap cannot be solved by throwing more money at and drilling students. Bush is spending more on poverty entitlements because the poverty rate is growing under his administration. http://mediamatters.org/items/200509140004 Well, what Rumsfeld said was stupid, as if he was expecting to find them there after possibly more than a year of preparationg for Saddam to hide his stuff. But, considering what Wilkenson (I still don't know how to properly spell his name) said, to say they have coordinates of stuff doesn't surprise me. The poverty rate grew because of the sharp increase in uneducated, poor illlegal immigrants. I do fault Bush for that. |
| _____________________________________ [Nov 19,2005 11:17am - PatMeebles ""] Oh, and Bush, to the best of my knowledge, actually has increased Pell Grant funding, not just how many people get it. If not, he, at the very least, tried to get the increases passed through congress. |
| _____________________________________ [Nov 19,2005 4:17pm - HailTheLeaf ""] the_taste_of_cigarettes said:"Some Democrats who voted to authorize the use of force are now rewriting the past," Bush said. "They're playing politics with this issue and they are sending mixed signals to our troops and the enemy. That is irresponsible." Good job unifying! rewriting the past? you've gotta be fucking kidding me...oh wait, why did we supposedly invade Iraq originally? they had something to do with 9/11 right? no, no, that wasn't true at all...then it was, they've got weapons of mass destruction (just like us, Iran, Pakistan, etc...)...but wait, no they didn't, scratch that...let's see..oh yeah, now we're there to "spread Democracy" you know, something we say we have here, but really don't. So who's trying to "rewrite history"? playing politics? being irresponsible? the Bush administration wrote the fucking book on that...can't we just burn them at the stake already? |
| _____________________________________ [Nov 19,2005 4:22pm - HailTheLeaf ""] I can't wait until we start nuking China in 10 years because they'll be using the same disgusting amount of oil we hog up, and the U.S. will be competing with them to rape the last remaining drops from the earth...things to look forward to. It's already begun...why do you think we're really in Iraq? why are troops guarding oil pipelines? Why is there a buildup of our warships on China's coasts? |
| ______________________________ [Nov 19,2005 4:23pm - wade ""] PatMeebles said:wade said:the Tax cuts were extended and, I believe, further protected yesterday. fuckin ridiculous. yeah, lets cut taxes AND slash spending on programs that help the neediest Americans...if you think the cuts are to help the middle and lower classes, you're as dumb as Bush, Inc. thinks you are. Actually, while Bush has cut taxes (which is why the defecit is down by 100 billion, by the way), he's increased spending, especially on poverty entitlements (somewhere in the 30% range) and education (somewhere in the 50% range). yeah, Bush is all about helping the poor. And the tax breaks serve the wealthy. cutting taxes now is just really fucking stupid. it doesn't stimulate the economy and it certainly isn't responsible in times of national crisis (Iraq, Katrina). |
| ____________________________________________ [Nov 19,2005 5:05pm - Radical_Dirt_Biker ""] you guys must think that you are so hot when it comes to politics then why arent you guys running this country insted of whacking you weeners on the internet all day looks too me like you should all just shut up and stop crying like little babies. ill bet that girls really find you atractive when you sit around and cry like babies all day try to act like men and stop crying like new born babies WAAAAAAAAAA LOL!!! |
| ______________________________ [Nov 19,2005 5:27pm - wade ""] Radical_Dirt_Biker said:you guys must think that you are so hot when it comes to politics then why arent you guys running this country insted of whacking you weeners on the internet all day looks too me like you should all just shut up and stop crying like little babies. ill bet that girls really find you atractive when you sit around and cry like babies all day try to act like men and stop crying like new born babies WAAAAAAAAAA LOL!!! this is kinda like crying. isn't it? i love it when people that post make fun of people that post. thanks for the laugh gaydog. |
| ____________________________________________ [Nov 19,2005 6:11pm - Radical_Dirt_Biker ""] hey wade maybe ill get you a tissue after i jump my friggin KX off of your girlfriends chin and right into your face. you can use the dual action tissues to wipe up you political fags crybaby tears and your face blood look like you got pwnt....wade.....wade is also a gay name....wade LOL!!!! |
| ______________________________ [Nov 19,2005 7:17pm - wade ""] Radical_Dirt_Biker said:hey wade maybe ill get you a tissue after i jump my friggin KX off of your girlfriends chin and right into your face. you can use the dual action tissues to wipe up you political fags crybaby tears and your face blood look like you got pwnt....wade.....wade is also a gay name....wade LOL!!!! yeah dood.:wiggam: |
| ____________________________________ [Nov 19,2005 9:00pm - PatMeebles ""] wade said:PatMeebles said:wade said:the Tax cuts were extended and, I believe, further protected yesterday. fuckin ridiculous. yeah, lets cut taxes AND slash spending on programs that help the neediest Americans...if you think the cuts are to help the middle and lower classes, you're as dumb as Bush, Inc. thinks you are. Actually, while Bush has cut taxes (which is why the defecit is down by 100 billion, by the way), he's increased spending, especially on poverty entitlements (somewhere in the 30% range) and education (somewhere in the 50% range). yeah, Bush is all about helping the poor. And the tax breaks serve the wealthy. cutting taxes now is just really fucking stupid. it doesn't stimulate the economy and it certainly isn't responsible in times of national crisis (Iraq, Katrina). Well, look what tax increases have done. Bush Senior raised taxes during the first Iraq War, and then we had a huge drop in the market. |
| ____________________________________ [Nov 20,2005 12:15am - dreadkill ""] DestroyYouAlot said:Radical Snowmobiler said:I'm gonna fuel up on chicken fries and pwn your faggot ass, then I'll bust a sick flare off your dads dickhole. Quote of the year. can't argue with that. i laughed my dickhole off. |
| ____________________________________________ [Nov 20,2005 4:03am - Radical_Dirt_Biker ""] well i see where your alls loyalties lie looks like im out of here so have a good time snowmobiling ok bye LOL!! |
| _____________________________________ [Nov 20,2005 7:08pm - HailTheLeaf ""] ha, umm..didn't they just cut about 75 million out of welfare...specifically food stamps? |
| ______________________________ [Nov 20,2005 7:46pm - wade ""] [img] |
| ____________________________________ [Nov 20,2005 9:33pm - PatMeebles ""] HailTheLeaf said:ha, umm..didn't they just cut about 75 million out of welfare...specifically food stamps? I tried to google the story and came up with nothing. Please provide a link, if you can. |