A question for Axis double pedal users
[views:42507][posts:173]___________________________________________
[Mar 25,2011 1:26pm - FuckIsMySignature ""]
DONT MAKE ME DO MATH BRO ITS FRIDAY FRIDAY FRIDAY AND I JUST WANNA HAVE FUN WHICH SEAT SHOULD I TAKE!
[Mar 25,2011 1:30pm - ouchdrummer ""]
ArrowHeadNLI said:
ouchdrummer said:AND this bullshit about 32nds, 16ths, etc..... THEY'RE ALL THE SAME, DAMNIT!!
If we're playing a song, and the metranome says 100bpms, and you're doing 1/4 notes... then you're doing 400 notes a minute... but if you turn the metranome up to 200bpms, and you do 1/2 notes, then you're playing the EXACT SAME SPEED. it's all where you put the pulse/downbeat.
That's true in everything BUT metal, where every band/song seems to be the same friggin tempos anyway. 200bpm, and chugs on the low E (or b, for 7 stringers). Because it can be that generic, most musicians will refer to the breakdown of triplets, 8ths, 16th, 32s, etc... as subdivisions of a set speed, and not mathematical components that can be applied to other tempos (or other drums, even.)
Semantics!!! you know what i'm saying is true... When talking about the speed of playing, you shouldn't just say 32nds, or 64ths, you should say 32nds@240bpm..... etc... please? *smooch*
[Mar 25,2011 1:33pm - narkybark ""]
DRUM TALK DRUM TALK
[Mar 25,2011 1:34pm - FuckIsMySignature ""]
rabble rabble rabble gus gus
[Mar 25,2011 1:38pm - Alexecutioner ""]
ouchdrummer said:AND this bullshit about 32nds, 16ths, etc..... THEY'RE ALL THE SAME, DAMNIT!!
If we're playing a song, and the metranome says 100bpms, and you're doing 1/4 notes... then you're doing 400 notes a minute... but if you turn the metranome up to 200bpms, and you do 1/2 notes, then you're playing the EXACT SAME SPEED. it's all where you put the pulse/downbeat.
i dont really know what tempo its at, since its all relative. lets just say its fast, roughly the fastest i can move the pedals while keeping up with the guitars, cutting it in half just wouldnt sound the same
[Mar 25,2011 1:39pm - Alexecutioner ""]
jimbo, i've been having a hard time with these new pedals. i pretty much ended up stripping one of the screws and they are currently not playable. i have to see if i can get the entire thing replaced thru music 123 since its still within 45 days, OR get it serviced under warranty.
i'd really like to get a chance to talk to you about this tho, cuz i am considering just returning them all together
[Mar 25,2011 2:02pm - Alexecutioner ""]
ouchdrummer said:So, i as opposed to getting into a debate about the appropriate use of triggers, i'm going to go ahead an answer your question. You asked me this the other day, and I don't think you explained it as well then. So here goes:
The AXIS pedals have SOO many ways to make adjustments that aren't obvious at all. It took me almost 3 months to really understand what to change when i desire a certain effect. I believe the adjustment you're looking for is an "alan wrench" slot on the joint that connects the top of the left spring to the housing. This is NOT a tension adjustment, and at first glance it looks not like an adjustment, but just like a way to connect the spring to the housing. If you loosen that, while holding the left beater stationary, then adjust that foward or back you will notice that it changes exactly what i think you're talking about... if that's not it, come to my room tonight and get me from my drum practice and I'll take a look at it.
i wish i knew that before i fucked with something else and stripped the screw. the pedals are currently broken pretty much
[Mar 25,2011 2:25pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
For the record, people that say tiggers make you faster, or better, or are cheating, are idiots. Period. Trigger makes about as much difference in your playing as the mic the soundguy chooses to stick in your bass drum. At least with a trigger, YOU control this choice - not him.
A trigger doesn't effect your playing. It just effects the final sound. Cheating with a trigger, - IE using constant velocity to maintain an even kick sound, is NOT DIFFERENT than the soundman slathering compression on your acoustic kick to attain the same fucking result. Difference is, when the soundman fixes it you can play ignorant, and pretend there's nothing wrong with your technique. Whereas with a trigger, you ARE admitting your deficiencies by consciously compensating.
[Mar 25,2011 2:25pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
NOT tiggers. TRIGGERS. But Tiggers DO make you faster. I will not jam with a drummer who uses TIGGERS. Always ends up getting us into trouble and pissing off POOH.
[Mar 25,2011 2:28pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
Now drummers that replace every hit in the studio are another story. Unless you're in a situation where you CAN'T get a decent recorded sound, this is definitely a shortcut and cheating. I'm tired of hearing the same kick drum on every album these days. Even using samples myself, I go out of my way to use real raw drum sounds and mix and treat them like I would a real drum, so the end result is my OWN sound.
[Mar 25,2011 2:28pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
Sorry to babble. I'm out of drugs and bored silly.
[Mar 25,2011 2:46pm - TotenJuden ""]
Just buy the most expensive pedal. Then you'll rule. Especially for double kicks and triggers which are the most non-gay things ever.
[Mar 25,2011 2:51pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
TotenJuden said:Just buy the most expensive pedal. Then you'll rule. Especially for double kicks and triggers which are the most non-gay things ever.
Can't figure out if you're a troll or a retard. If it's the latter, I'll actually take time to point out - often the most expensive anything is expensive because it serves a very specific niche and wouldn't work for most people.
[Mar 25,2011 3:17pm - Thurstin Howell ""]
Like caviar, sweetie.
[Mar 25,2011 3:18pm - brian_dc ""]
pretty sure that person was being sarcastic
[Mar 25,2011 3:26pm - ouchdrummer ""]
ArrowHeadNLI said:For the record, people that say tiggers make you faster, or better, or are cheating, are idiots. Period. Trigger makes about as much difference in your playing as the mic the soundguy chooses to stick in your bass drum. At least with a trigger, YOU control this choice - not him.
A trigger doesn't effect your playing. It just effects the final sound. Cheating with a trigger, - IE using constant velocity to maintain an even kick sound, is NOT DIFFERENT than the soundman slathering compression on your acoustic kick to attain the same fucking result. Difference is, when the soundman fixes it you can play ignorant, and pretend there's nothing wrong with your technique. Whereas with a trigger, you ARE admitting your deficiencies by consciously compensating.
You're obviously right, and to add to your statement:
Not only do they not make you better or faster at all, but since they make that final sound so incredibly audible all the time, they make everyone hear ALL of your fuckups. ALL OF THEM. So in a sense, they don't make you sound different, but they pull your bass drum playing to the front, and really highlight how clear or sloppy your technique is.
[Mar 25,2011 3:30pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
Funny thing here is 5+ years ago I was yelling at Jimbo for using too many two on two fills. I was being a cocky prick, and here I am now trying to actually learn them myself and basking in the glow of Jim's superior drum knowledge. My how a few years can change your perspective.
[Mar 25,2011 3:33pm - narkybark ""]
ITT: warm glows
[Mar 25,2011 3:35pm - ouchdrummer ""]
Alexecutioner said:
ouchdrummer said:So, i as opposed to getting into a debate about the appropriate use of triggers, i'm going to go ahead an answer your question. You asked me this the other day, and I don't think you explained it as well then. So here goes:
The AXIS pedals have SOO many ways to make adjustments that aren't obvious at all. It took me almost 3 months to really understand what to change when i desire a certain effect. I believe the adjustment you're looking for is an "alan wrench" slot on the joint that connects the top of the left spring to the housing. This is NOT a tension adjustment, and at first glance it looks not like an adjustment, but just like a way to connect the spring to the housing. If you loosen that, while holding the left beater stationary, then adjust that foward or back you will notice that it changes exactly what i think you're talking about... if that's not it, come to my room tonight and get me from my drum practice and I'll take a look at it.
i wish i knew that before i fucked with something else and stripped the screw. the pedals are currently broken pretty much
1st off, I am deeply sympathetic to you for having to maybe replace your pedals, but i gotta say:
I DEFINITELY told you about all of the different ways to adjust them, and how it took me forever to figure them all out. I definitely told you about the huge learning curve with them, and the fact that the learning curve is highly affected by the fact that your still learning how to adjust the pedal the way you want it to move.. lastly, why didn't you just wait for me before you used excessive force? I mean, to strip out a brand new screw takes some serious pressure, and i told you a bunch of times that having me there to specifically show you how to adjust yours would probably cut down the time it took you to get acclimated to them. I'm not blaming you for buying a totally complicated pedal, i just didn't like the:
"I wish i knew this before" as if I was partially to blame for not educating you before you fucked up your pedal. I already said, i'll be there tonight, come down to my room and we can look at your pedal. And no, i don't think you need to call 1 2 3, (or whatever their name is) it's still DEFINITELY in the manufactures warranty, and that way you can save dealing with 1 2 3 until you maybe need to down the line. If you call AXIS and just tell them that part freakishly broke, they'll overnight it to you. Here's their number: 1 888 457 3630 (tell em Jimbo Fitz from Boston sent you.
)[Mar 25,2011 3:36pm - ouchdrummer ""]
ArrowHeadNLI said:Funny thing here is 5+ years ago I was yelling at Jimbo for using too many two on two fills. I was being a cocky prick, and here I am now trying to actually learn them myself and basking in the glow of Jim's superior drum knowledge. My how a few years can change your perspective.
I wanna kiss you right now. You want to do a couple lessons? I'm cheap, 20 for 40minutes. Only catch is, if i think you haven't practiced between lessons, i stop giving you lessons. interested?
[Mar 25,2011 3:41pm - Alexecutioner ""]
ouchdrummer said:
Alexecutioner said:
ouchdrummer said:So, i as opposed to getting into a debate about the appropriate use of triggers, i'm going to go ahead an answer your question. You asked me this the other day, and I don't think you explained it as well then. So here goes:
The AXIS pedals have SOO many ways to make adjustments that aren't obvious at all. It took me almost 3 months to really understand what to change when i desire a certain effect. I believe the adjustment you're looking for is an "alan wrench" slot on the joint that connects the top of the left spring to the housing. This is NOT a tension adjustment, and at first glance it looks not like an adjustment, but just like a way to connect the spring to the housing. If you loosen that, while holding the left beater stationary, then adjust that foward or back you will notice that it changes exactly what i think you're talking about... if that's not it, come to my room tonight and get me from my drum practice and I'll take a look at it.
i wish i knew that before i fucked with something else and stripped the screw. the pedals are currently broken pretty much
1st off, I am deeply sympathetic to you for having to maybe replace your pedals, but i gotta say:
I DEFINITELY told you about all of the different ways to adjust them, and how it took me forever to figure them all out. I definitely told you about the huge learning curve with them, and the fact that the learning curve is highly affected by the fact that your still learning how to adjust the pedal the way you want it to move.. lastly, why didn't you just wait for me before you used excessive force? I mean, to strip out a brand new screw takes some serious pressure, and i told you a bunch of times that having me there to specifically show you how to adjust yours would probably cut down the time it took you to get acclimated to them. I'm not blaming you for buying a totally complicated pedal, i just didn't like the:
"I wish i knew this before" as if I was partially to blame for not educating you before you fucked up your pedal. I already said, i'll be there tonight, come down to my room and we can look at your pedal. And no, i don't think you need to call 1 2 3, (or whatever their name is) it's still DEFINITELY in the manufactures warranty, and that way you can save dealing with 1 2 3 until you maybe need to down the line. If you call AXIS and just tell them that part freakishly broke, they'll overnight it to you. Here's their number: 1 888 457 3630 (tell em Jimbo Fitz from Boston sent you.
)
i really really did not intend for it to sound as if i was holding you responsible for showing me how these things work, thats totally not your job and its only my fault that i stripped the screw. all i meant by that was that i could not see anywhere else on the pedal that i could adjust, so i thought that was the only way. had i realized there was another setting that i was unaware of (again not your fault) i would have done that first. but i figured if i could just adjust the cam on the left pedal, that all my problems would be fixed. i was wrong however haha.
however, that doesnt mean i didnt wish i knew about that before i went ahead and messed with something that i shouldnt have haha, however i didnt feel that it was your job to educate me. i adjusted the left pedal spring like you said but since that wasnt fixing it i tried other methods to my own result, which stripped the screw.
it stripped because i thought i wasnt tightening enough, considering how much pressure i needed to loosen the screw to begin with i figured i needed equal pressure to set it back in place. i talked to Darrel (i think) on the phone today at axis, he told me what i needed to do to fix it, the only question is if i can get the screw out now.
[Mar 25,2011 3:41pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
ouchdrummer said:
ArrowHeadNLI said:Funny thing here is 5+ years ago I was yelling at Jimbo for using too many two on two fills. I was being a cocky prick, and here I am now trying to actually learn them myself and basking in the glow of Jim's superior drum knowledge. My how a few years can change your perspective.
I wanna kiss you right now. You want to do a couple lessons? I'm cheap, 20 for 40minutes. Only catch is, if i think you haven't practiced between lessons, i stop giving you lessons. interested?
too far, or I might. I'm in Plymouth, and unemployed. Can't really afford it.
[Mar 25,2011 3:43pm - ouchdrummer ""]
ArrowHeadNLI said:
ouchdrummer said:
ArrowHeadNLI said:Funny thing here is 5+ years ago I was yelling at Jimbo for using too many two on two fills. I was being a cocky prick, and here I am now trying to actually learn them myself and basking in the glow of Jim's superior drum knowledge. My how a few years can change your perspective.
I wanna kiss you right now. You want to do a couple lessons? I'm cheap, 20 for 40minutes. Only catch is, if i think you haven't practiced between lessons, i stop giving you lessons. interested?
too far, or I might. I'm in Plymouth, and unemployed. Can't really afford it.
well, i'm close to the train, and will barter, or start tabs. you let me know, I promise it'll be worthwhile and fun! YEAH! hehehe
[Mar 25,2011 3:47pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
Since I'm mostly recording, I think it would make more sense just to bribe you to play the parts for me! ;) How's your Sean Reinert impression?
[Mar 25,2011 3:52pm - Arist nli ""]
I agree with Arrowhead, can't stand listening to natural bass drum mic'd up in a live setting. The trigger really cuts through nicely
[Mar 25,2011 3:53pm - brodown ""]
ArrowHeadNLI said:For the record, people that say tiggers make you faster, or better, or are cheating, are idiots. Period. Trigger makes about as much difference in your playing as the mic the soundguy chooses to stick in your bass drum. At least with a trigger, YOU control this choice - not him.
A trigger doesn't effect your playing. It just effects the final sound. Cheating with a trigger, - IE using constant velocity to maintain an even kick sound, is NOT DIFFERENT than the soundman slathering compression on your acoustic kick to attain the same fucking result. Difference is, when the soundman fixes it you can play ignorant, and pretend there's nothing wrong with your technique. Whereas with a trigger, you ARE admitting your deficiencies by consciously compensating.
Triggers definitely don't necessarily make you faster, and they definitely don't make you "better" (which is a whoooole other conversation in and of itself.)
However, they ABSOLUTELY change the way you play. It is a whole hell of a lot more difficult to hit hard and fast than it is to hit light and fast (not debatable, its the laws of physics.) Playing triggers takes that entirely out of the equation. Additionally, when you trigger a drum, you no longer have to worry about the acoustic timbre of the drum, and in my experience playing on other people's triggered kits, they tend to tune the kick drum head WAY higher, which results in a drastically different response and feel. (Nevermind an absolutely dreadful sound to listen to if you don't have a monitor wedge blaring kick drum samples in your ear.)
I take a lot of pride in making sure that the attack of my kick is audible, even when we're playing in a basement / VFW hall / club with shitty sound. Part of it is equipment (kick pads, wood beaters, iron cobras instead of axis pedals, etc.), and part of it is technique. I also take pride that the low-end of my kick drum gets WAY the fuck down there, both to the ear and especially when mic'ed. If I were using triggers, none of that shit would make any difference, and I could use the axis pedals and tap-tap away on a cardboard box. While I definitely appreciate the skill and dedication of drummers that use triggers and play WAY faster than I can, I have little to no artistic interest in ever doing so myself.
As for the bit about compression / limiting being similar to triggering--sure, it does remove some of the dynamic inconsistencies that drummers deal with. In theory, a sound guy could absolutely crush a kick sound, so that there is no dynamic variation whatsoever, but I tend to think that sounds like shit too. Compression can also be used to make drums "fat, punchy" or whatever you want to call it, without destroying all semblance of dynamics in the performance. I'll take well-engineered live drums with appropriate compression over triggered drums that sound like they're being played by a robot that is running out of batteries.
All philosophical debate aside, I'd like to state for the record that my opposition to triggers isn't because its "cheating" or anything like that. It's because they sound fucking DUMB. If I want to listen to a drum machine, I'll listen to Agoraphobic Nosebleed. Otherwise, when I see a band, I want to hear a fucking band--not an electronic representation thereof.
End rant.
[Mar 25,2011 3:56pm - brian_dc ""]
I'm always a proponent of no triggers before triggers.
but I barely like metal, so I guess I don't know what I'm doing here.
[Mar 25,2011 3:59pm - brodown ""]
Let me add a qualifier--I think triggers sound dumb with MOST bands. A good drummer that chooses to use triggers can still sound really cool (I love watching Jimbo w/Boarcorpse, for example!) but far, far too many drummers use them as a crutch.
[Mar 25,2011 4:03pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
Arist%20nli said:I agree with Arrowhead, can't stand listening to natural bass drum mic'd up in a live setting. The trigger really cuts through nicely
whoa, don't misconstrue me. NOTHING beats properly micing and amplifying the natural sound of an acoustic drum. It's just most clubs/soundmen don't have the room or variety of mics needed to handle every kit or drummer well. So often the best way to keep that sound room to room is to bring it WITH you via sample.
I'd actually prefer a sample of my OWN drums miced and recorded the way I like over using someone elses sound coming out of my own drum if I were a drummer in a band.
I just don't want to sound pro-samples. Ideally I like the combination of Mic, Room, Drum, and Drummer to get a unique sound. But when there's other factors working against you, triggers and samples can yield a much more controllable sound than live mics.
[Mar 25,2011 4:07pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
brodown said:
ArrowHeadNLI said:
However, they ABSOLUTELY change the way you play. It is a whole hell of a lot more difficult to hit hard and fast than it is to hit light and fast (not debatable, its the laws of physics.)
Sorry man, I haven't finished reading your post, and I might 100% agree with the rest of it, but this statement is not only NOT true, it's the complete OPPOSITE of true. It takes FAR MORE muscle control and development to play softly than loudly. This is the laws of BIOLOGY and PHYSICS both. And as an actual drummer, you should damn well know that.
I had an acoustic kit for 5 years, and I could slam the SHIT out of the double bass. When I moved into my condo and switched to e-drums, I had to completely re-learn to play and still am not close to where I was, because using small movements and hitting lightly (to avoid pissing off the neighbors) takes WAY MORE MOTOR SKILL AND MUSCLE CONTROL to do. This is true of any fine motor movement, not just drumming.
[Mar 25,2011 4:16pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
I read the rest. I disagree with most everything you say. You still seem to have a basic misunderstanding of what a trigger IS.
Also, your comments about compression and such are a little off. Compression is something that CAN crush a kick live, it DOES. Every show you play that they've miced your kit, I GUARANTEE that the soundguy is not only compressing your kick but slathering it with EQ, cutting those frequencies you're so proud of or boosting the crap out of them (depending on the house), and you're onstage thinking what you hear is the result of your gear and technique.
In addition, the idea that triggers "sound stupid"? You're talking about fucking SAMPLES, not TRIGGERS. If I mic my own kick, and sample it at varying velocities and with different strokes and then trigger it myself via a velocity sensitive trigger, it will sound JUST LIKE MY DRUM through that mic. If I play soft, IT WILL SOUND LIKE IT! If I play hard, IT WILL SOUND LIKE IT!
What you are talking about is settings, not triggering. I can smoosh my velocity curve and FART on my kick and it will sound like king kong just stomped on my pedal. OR, I can turn the curve off completely and it will react much like a real drum - the better your trigger the more accurate.
You're in 1995, dude. Not all triggers lack sensitivity, and not every trigger is going to be using DM5 samples.
[Mar 25,2011 4:54pm - ouchdrummer ""]
ha, i luv drum talk.
I 100% agree with WithoutArrow, it actually is harder to hit controlled, especially fast. That's why when you ask most drummers to go faster, they automatically hit louder too.
Also just a side note, in order for triggers to work properly, you really can't hit anywhere near as lightly as people think you can. If you don't put some "umph" into it, it misses all sorts of strokes. I can say this with a certainty, because for the first year or so with the AXIS i was trying to learn to do the "tapping" thing so that i could hopefully go faster in the end, but what ended up happening was that i got all sorts of bad triggering, and it made me sound lame as hell. Since then, i've moved the beaters back a bunch & cranked up the tension, and it's really really helped in making the triggers much more accurate.
And lastly, which i can't stress enough. You have to be PERFECT with triggers. Even though, yes, it changes the sound that comes out, it does not change the timing of your hits. Nor does velocity curve, or anything else short of drum edits in the studio. So if your hits aren't 100% accurate, EVERYONE in the room hears it. Have you ever seen a band with a bad drummer? It ruins the band, no one else in the band can play right when the beat is all over the place... now, that same sloppy drum can TOTALLY play without triggers, hit as hard as he can, and the bass drum resonance alone will mask the inconsistency in the timing of the hits, nevermind the fact that the acoustic sound just doesn't cut through nearly as well.
[Mar 25,2011 5:08pm - brodown ""]
You're wildly misconstruing what I meant. Maybe that's because I'm speaking in generalities, but we're also talking quite generally...
When you're talking about playing "softly" in a dynamics sense, of course it takes more control to play at extreme low volume. If you want to get technical about it, the muscle control that it takes to play at pp or ppp is drastically more intense than playing at mf or f. No argument there.
I'm talking about metal here, so instead of the difference between pp and mp, we're talking about the difference between f and fff (if you are of the sense to believe that such dynamics markings above or below pp and ff actually mean anything.) Playing really fucking fast really fucking loud is a lot harder than playing really fucking fast not so fucking loud. Most bands metal bands that regularly use triggers aren't concerned with playing like Elvin Jones. I don't really know many drummers in our scene that need to play super fast super quiet, and if they did, they'd be told "PLAY LOUDER OR CHINATOWN!"
I know how sound works in a club. I do live sound, and work in the audio industry full time. I just like having instruments that sound good, before they're miced up. We play basements as often as clubs, and I'd rather my shit sound good before its manipulated electronically than not. If I am in a big club with a sound system that's worthwhile, I'd hope the sound guy is worth the air he's breathing. If he uses his ears instead of his eyes, he'll recognize a good sound and won't NEED to destroy the kick with EQ or compress the life out of it. Sure, a sound guy can ruin the sound of an acoustic instrument, but just because you use a trigger doesn't mean that that signal isn't then compressed or EQ'd to the same degree.
You're right that you can use velocity sensitive triggers, and that you could, in theory, have several different velocity sensitive samples too. But, if they're gonna sound EXACTLY the same, as you claim, then what's the point of using them? If it sounds exactly the same as an acoustic instrument, then why lug the extra gear?
You're right, not all triggers lack sensitivity, and not all drummers that use them are using a DM5. But, most drummers that use them regularly aren't using them in the method you described, and are trying to cover up for their own inconsistencies. It sounds cool for Drive By Bukkake, but in that case Sam is trying to mimic a drum machine. I'm not the one stuck in '95, I don't use the shit at all. I'm not saying you're stuck in '95 either...but most users are.
All I'm really getting at is that loud, live, well-mixed drums SOUND FUCKING AWESOME.
[Mar 25,2011 5:32pm - Alexecutioner ""]
all this trigger discussion has been really helpful, but i feel like its making me lean away from triggers entirely haha. im not looking to get them to play faster, just would like to have more volume consistency in clubs where they dont mic the bass drum or just do a very poor job of doing so. its just annoying when you realize no one could hear what you were doing on the bass drum, considering i could have saved myself the trouble by just not playing with my feet at all haha.
[Mar 25,2011 5:32pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
Nope. it still more demanding to play QUIETLY. Even in your own example. Less volume = more control = more use of stabilizer muscles and micro movements which is both more physically demanding on the body AND takes longer to develop proper muscle memory. You're not gonna change science with your opinion of drumming. I understand though, your preferred technique is to play loud.
Secondly you say you work live sound, but you hope soundman doesn't use compression? I will NEVER play where you do sound. Run one show with no compression on the drum buss, or on the kick channel. I'd like to know how long people stick around to listen to the feedback. Most soundmen worth their salt aren't recognizing good sounds and not destroying it with compression. They just using it right off the bat, as is the standard in live reinforcement. They're trying to fit you to their room, not the other way around dude.
Giving a soundguy a stereo direct out to the PA, and telling them that that out is already compressed, treated, etc... is going to give you a LOT more control over the outcome. Granted, he may still choose to compress it, but you've still eliminated mic choice, room sound, etc... from the variables you're dealing with.
And when you say "you could, in theory" have multi velocity samples - not in theory. IN PRACTICE. I have it right here in my living room. I have several dozen drumkits worth of raw samples, multi-velocity, with complete control over every single variable including MIC BLEED. Every good set of samples since the original DFH has been multi-sampled like this. It's nothing new.
Well mixed drums sound awesome. But you have no control over how your live kit is miced or sounds (unless you bring your own mics and submixer, in which case you are amazing (not sarcastic - this is the best case scenario). With triggers, YOU control your sound. The soundman just gets a 1/4 inch cable. As for the sound, you just gotta understand that what YOU like is just as easily done with triggers as what you DON'T like. You're blaming triggers for something that is just a drummer's personal choice.
MODERN e-drums + samples:
bennyhillifier
note the tracking and variety of sounds on the snare alone, when he switched to traditional grip. Every little ghost note and ruff. Listen to the variety and different volumes/sounds he gets out of the kick.
bennyhillifier
bennyhillifier
[Mar 25,2011 5:41pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
Alexecutioner said:all this trigger discussion has been really helpful, but i feel like its making me lean away from triggers entirely haha. im not looking to get them to play faster, just would like to have more volume consistency in clubs where they dont mic the bass drum or just do a very poor job of doing so.
You can do this. One thing to know, some dipshit soundmen that are stuck in 1995 will not want to run your triggers. I saw this a lot with Cesca. We'd have guys that didn't know what it was, and didn't want to run a straight 1/4 inch to the board. Also, keep a 1/4 to mic adapter cable handy, in case you need one to run into the house's snake.
[Mar 28,2011 8:47am - ouchdrummer ""]
ArrowHeadNLI said:
ouchdrummer said:AND this bullshit about 32nds, 16ths, etc..... THEY'RE ALL THE SAME, DAMNIT!!
If we're playing a song, and the metranome says 100bpms, and you're doing 1/4 notes... then you're doing 400 notes a minute... but if you turn the metranome up to 200bpms, and you do 1/2 notes, then you're playing the EXACT SAME SPEED. it's all where you put the pulse/downbeat.
That's true in everything BUT metal, where every band/song seems to be the same friggin tempos anyway. 200bpm, and chugs on the low E (or b, for 7 stringers). Because it can be that generic, most musicians will refer to the breakdown of triplets, 8ths, 16th, 32s, etc... as subdivisions of a set speed, and not mathematical components that can be applied to other tempos (or other drums, even.)
I thought about this over the weekend.. and it hit me:
If we're talking about metal, which is generally around 200bpm, then why the hell are anything faster than 1/4 notes being discussed? Never mind 32nd notes, frieking 1/8 notes at that speed are faster than George Kollias of NILE, Inferno of BEHEMOTH, or John Longstreth of ORIGIN. In the George Kollias instructional video they point out during a bass drum excercise when he's playing 1/4 notes at 280bpm.... just to compare, if you were talking about 1/8th notes at 200bpm, (roughly what most metal is at.) That would be the same as saying you could do 1/4 notes at 400bpms... which is 120-1/4 notes per minute faster than George Kollias in NILE. (Sadly, in my bass drum excercises I'm still at about 210bpms with 1/4 notes... maybe in a couple more years i'll be able to play NILE songs..... maybe, maybe not.)
I'm not trying to say "I told you so" with this, I just wanted to clarify for future comprehension purposes. (for everyone)
[Mar 28,2011 9:17am - arktouros ""]
ArrowHeadNLI said:Nope. it still more demanding to play QUIETLY. Even in your own example. Less volume = more control = more use of stabilizer muscles and micro movements which is both more physically demanding on the body AND takes longer to develop proper muscle memory.
this is true. above the drums, you will play :yoda:
[Mar 28,2011 9:22am - arktouros ""]
also jim, good point. but you could talk about 32nd notes across a whole measure in 4/4 time, where you're right hand and right foot would hit the kick and hihat 16 times, and your left foot would hit every other time...you'd have 32 notes on the kick. this is much more realistic at 180bpm...but not out of the question at 200bpm, which for the purpose of discussion, i've heard you, me, and alex do.
[Mar 28,2011 9:25am - arktouros ""]
we're all just talking about the same damn fractions anyway. none of this makes sense unless we're sitting behind a kit.
[Mar 28,2011 9:27am - largefreakatzero ""]
Only progmetaldrummer holds the true answers to this debate.
[Mar 28,2011 10:38am - brodown ""]
Rather than repeat myself, I'm just going to post some highlights of my previous post, and if you're at all interested in continuing an actual discussion about this, we can move forward from there.
brodown said:
When you're talking about playing "softly" in a dynamics sense, of course it takes more control to play at extreme low volume. No argument there.
I don't really know many drummers in our scene that need to play super fast super quiet, and if they did, they'd be told "PLAY LOUDER OR CHINATOWN!" [If I'm wrong, please tell me, cause I'd love to see this band in action.]
I just like having instruments that sound good, before they're miced up.
If he [a sound guy] uses his ears instead of his eyes, he'll recognize a good sound and won't NEED to destroy the kick with EQ or compress the life out of it.
But, if they're [triggered drums] gonna sound EXACTLY the same, as you claim, then what's the point of using them? If it sounds exactly the same as an acoustic instrument, then why lug the extra gear?
All I'm really getting at is that loud, live, well-mixed drums SOUND FUCKING AWESOME.
[Mar 28,2011 10:54am - brodown ""]
I checked out those videos you posted too...there is not a damn thing in there that has convinced me that triggering sounds better than a real instrument. You can hear the different velocity samples clear as a bell, and while that sounds better than a Lynn Drum, it still pales in comparison to real instruments.
bennyhillifier
bennyhillifier
bennyhillifier
bennyhillifier
bennyhillifier
I take it back...nothing sounds better than a Linn Drum.
[Mar 28,2011 10:55am - josh_hates_you ""]
uh...200 bmp = 50 whole notes in 4/4 time. 50 x 16 = 800 kicks per minute. for the record most sarcomancy songs are about 140 with me playing 8th note triplets so it's the equivelent of playing 210 bpm blasts/double bass in 16th notes http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/wfdrank.php?event=2
i know i have played up to 240. = 960
the metronome i own tops out @ 212. i have to set it at 120 and double time it. fuck i wish i could actually practice once in a while.
[Mar 28,2011 11:25am - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
HAHAHA
love the part where he argues against triggers with a pantera video - a guy who used triggers live his ENTIRE CAREER.
As for quoting yourself, we've already refuted every word you said. Repeating yourself just leaves you behind.
[Mar 28,2011 11:30am - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
brodown said:I checked out those videos you posted too...there is not a damn thing in there that has convinced me that triggering sounds better than a real instrument. You can hear the different velocity samples clear as a bell,
UHH, you can hear different velocities on a real kit clear as a bell too. At what point do you figure you're full of shit? Oh yeah, that's right, I can't teach you anything over the web. Plus I forgot, you're already a master of live sound and know everything about drums. And yes, live clips of Vinnie Paul are the BEST ARGUMENT I've ever heard against triggers - despite the fact that he triggers his kick live.
Sheesh
[Mar 28,2011 11:35am - arilliusbm ""]
over analyzing rhythm ftw!
[Mar 28,2011 11:38am - arktouros ""]
i'm not sure what the argument is here but basically, volume dynamics. none of this "super quiet super fast" stuff. talking about throwing ghost notes, accents, pianissimo to fortissimo, into the drumming, no matter what style your playing. triggers just can't replicate this...
triggers have a niche and that's why people use them, i'd caution anyone that wants to go the trigger route, but that's me. you should be comfortable with volume dynamics on ever part of your kit before you move on to triggers, otherwise you're not learning how to play drums, you're learning how to play triggers.
triggers apply well when the music is compressed to begin with (run-off-the-mill metal) but things like compression, dampening, and EQ can be done to your physical drums before any mics or sound guys come near your kit. i would hate dealing with triggers, and i don't trust any sound guy to do a god damn thing.
anyway, random sentences about drumming. eat them.
[Mar 28,2011 11:51am - ArrowHeadNLI ""]
arktouros said:. talking about throwing ghost notes, accents, pianissimo to fortissimo, into the drumming, no matter what style your playing. triggers just can't replicate this...
Watch just the first video I linked all the way through, you'll see that this is completely untrue.
[Mar 28,2011 11:52am - arktouros ""]
that's not a triggered acoustic kit! that's a full on V-DRUM kit! of course it can do that!