A question for Axis double pedal users[views:47275][posts:173]_______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 11:53am - ArrowHeadNLI ""] Wait, a v-drum is not a cone trigger? They're built with magic? Or are you still thinking those clamp on sensors from 1995 are the only kind of triggers in existence anymore? Piezo trigger = piezo trigger. No matter HOW you roll it. |
| _______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 11:54am - ArrowHeadNLI ""] And for the record, those red triggers can actually be MORE sensitive than the cone triggers used in most mesh kits, and the plate mount triggers in most of the mylar styled pads like I have. |
| _______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 11:58am - ArrowHeadNLI ""] Sorry to keep posting - it's not the triggers on an acoustic kit that limit the dynamics. It's what the drummer uses for a BRAIN. For example, the DM5 which is the most popular unit out there for most metal drummers SOUNDS LIKE ABSOLUTE SHIT. (sorry jim, I know you use one). Meanwhile, a good roland module is like magic, even if you DON'T use their samples. It's all about how many sample/velocity layers the brain will recognize, and the software (or firmware) you use to connect it to the samples. |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 12:18pm - arktouros ""] sound samples that a mic'd acoustic drum can produce = infinite sound samples that the best roland brain + cones can produce = finite, even if your ear can't tell the difference. there's also a margin of error where the brain would have a skip threshold and not reproduce every hit. that's just the digital vs. acoustic argument, it's so old. those V-drums are the best thing to replace an acoustic kit because they feel very close to real drums...but they're not =] live sound is a completely different issue. you can't compare mic capture to digital reproduction. |
| _______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 12:26pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] Both are equally finite if you want to cut hairs. Without going too far into it, a multi velocity sample will consist of 10-12 velocity layers. Each layer will have anywhere from 5-10 samples for EACH level of volume. Therefore, every hit - even at the same exact volume, can randomly call up any of those 10 samples at that volume. So in other words, you've got over 120 possible samples for every stroke. And as you tried to diffuse - you're right - the human ear will NOT notice a difference. Vdrums are just the house for the triggers. Again, the ddrum red triggers are just as capable of doing exactly what I just described on an acoustic kit. bennyhillifier |
| _______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 12:34pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] sorry about using the video with shitty drumming. The first videos I found were all rock, better drumming and sounds by far, but not a really good example of dynamic range or velocities since most people will crank the velocity curve for rock (which is exactly what everyone here is actually against - not triggers but cheap dynamic shortcuts triggers enable us to use.) |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 12:47pm - arktouros ""] i want to hear a good studio recording, or live or whatever, of someone playing a triggered kit with chops emulating someone like Elvin Jones or anybody else ridiculous. i don't think it would compare. i've seen trigger applications work well with anything rock based, but moving further into jazz territory i just don't think something like that exists. |
| _______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 12:55pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] Jazz guys are harder to find. NOT due to limits in the technology, but because they play at volumes where very few would find need of acoustic triggers. (many jazz acts don't even mic drums) The closest you'll find is like the Nir Z video I posted. What I'm having difficulty doing is showing you an example of how the acoustic triggers can give the identical response, because every ddrum trigger video I find is those stupid fucking DM5 samples, which really just hurt my case (IMO) with how awful they sound. The technology is the same, both are a piezo under a piece of foam touching the drum head. |
| _______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 12:56pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] However, this is a good example of jazz using trigger, it's just not the acoustic triggers. bennyhillifier |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:01pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] Another fun one - bennyhillifier I admit, I'm not familiar with Elvin Jones, so I don't know exactly what type of jazz you be looking for. |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:04pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] Whoa, wait - I thought Morgan Agren (sp?) was a metal guy? bennyhillifier |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:07pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] Did someone ask for ghost notes? bennyhillifier |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:10pm - ouchdrummer ""] josh_hates_you said:uh...200 bmp = 50 whole notes in 4/4 time. 50 x 16 = 800 kicks per minute. for the record most sarcomancy songs are about 140 with me playing 8th note triplets so it's the equivelent of playing 210 bpm blasts/double bass in 16th notes http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/wfdrank.php?event=2 i know i have played up to 240. = 960 the metronome i own tops out @ 212. i have to set it at 120 and double time it. fuck i wish i could actually practice once in a while. So your reasoning is based on assuming that the pulse is going to get a 1/4 note value.. and that there will be 4 of them in every measure. And While that would make sense if we were just talking about a specific song, that is not what the conversation earlier in this thread was about. It was about the use of triggers, and the need for them at certain speeds.. And when talking about how fast someone is playing, you would refer to what the metronome is set on, and what subdivision of that you're playing. In other words, your example wouldn't then be referred to as playing at 200bpms and doing 16th notes, it would be playing 200bpms and playing 1/4 notes. (remember, part of the statement i was arguing with here was: "you don't need to state the BPMs, because when talking about metal, it's assumed that the songs are at 200bpms" -arrowhead) So you would either state your example as 1/4notes at 200bpms, or 16th notes at 50bpms.. and while they add up to the same amount of clicks per minute, one of them is in 1/4ths, and one is 16ths.. which further backs up my point of needing to say the BPMs when referring to 1/4th, 1/8th, 1/16ths, etc, because if you DON'T say the bpms, then those subdivisions mean nothing. So thank you for further making my point. |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:14pm - ouchdrummer ""] also, no offense, but i'm shocked you say you can play 1/4ths at 240.. Not because i've heard you play, because i never have, but because i thought it was you who was always putting your own drumming down.. that is you, isn't it? Anyways, you must be overly modest to be able to play that fast, say those things, and admit that you need to "practice once in a while". |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:15pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] By the way Jim, I was being sarcastic when I said that - thus why I followed it by saying drummers didn't know it could also be applied to other drums than the kick. I absolutely agree, tempo is always read as quarter=200bpm, etc... And there's no way in hell anyone here is playing 32 notes over a bar of 4/4 at 200 bpm. Hell, most of the drummers around Boston can't even do 8th notes cleanly at that speed. |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:15pm - narkybark ""] ITT: Trigger Lovers |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:25pm - ouchdrummer ""] i think we're still on different pages.. but that's ok. I just think that when talking about the speed with which your playing, not the speed relative to the song, you shouldn't take the time signature into account. You should just say what the metronome is set on, and what subdivision of it your playing, otherwise, it's impossible to know if everyone is talking about the same thing. When my metronome is on 200bpms, and i play 4 beats per every click, i would say that i'm playing 1/4 notes at 200bpms, regardless of how long the measure in the song is. I'm not saying that the same speed couldn't be called 32nd, or 64th notes, but that if they were called that, then the relative bpm would change too. |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:26pm - ouchdrummer ""] narkybark said:ITT: Trigger Lovers qft |
| _________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:26pm - brodown ""] I only quoted myself because it appeared that you completely ignored what I said. I also didn't realize that we were in a race, so I'm not sure what I'm "behind" on. Also, I thought there was some semblance of a coherent conversation going on here--you saying I'm "full of shit" isn't really gonna help advance the debate much. I know we're on RTTP, so I shouldn't really have expected much, but c'mon man. Aaaaaaanyway...couple quick things before we get to the heart of this. You never answered my question—“ if they're [triggers/samples] are gonna sound EXACTLY the same, as you claim, then what's the point of using them? If it sounds exactly the same as an acoustic instrument, then why lug the extra gear?” [In a live context. ] I also posted a Linn Drum video, and a video of Tony Roster Jr as a 7 year old. Ever think that maybe my video choices were intentionally goofy? Humor on RTTP? It’s more likely than you think. Also, I never suggested that I dislike or would stay away from compression. Far, far from it--compression is one of the coolest things that has ever happened to music. I just would hope that any good sound guy wouldn't apply the crushing compression you were talking about (or any amount of any processing) to any kick drum without listening to it. I’ve seen plenty of bands where the sound guy HAS crushed all the life out of the drums, and it completely sounds like shit. More often than not, that doesn’t happen to me. You said also "you can hear different velocities on a real kit clear as a bell too." You must have misconstrued something, because that was exactly my point. A drum kit has an infinite ability for dynamic musical expression, and while using triggers/samples, be it on an ekit or an acoustic kit, you electronically regiment your dynamics into discrete steps. Regardless of how many steps that may be, you're forcefully limiting the dynamic abilities of your instrument, no? As for the matter of dynamics/velocity/what is "harder" to do...I think we're using the same words to say two different things. I will certainly not argue that playing fast and quiet is a really difficult thing to train your brain & muscles to do. Playing quiet is hard for all musicians, especially drummers. Playing quiet can be hard, playing slow can be hard, playing fast can be hard, playing loud can be hard. Playing any kind of music well is hard. When this all started, I was specifically talking about playing loud enough to be audible in various live situations, in which case I have to put forth maximum physical effort into the pedals to be heard. To elaborate a little more, I play in a grind band. At our gig last Saturday, my genius band members thought full stacks for everyone was a great idea. We were in a small venue, where there was a vocal PA, but no snare or kick mic. Nothing else was miced—all acoustic goodness. This is not an uncommon sonic situation for me. (I don't want to get into a debate over the stupidity of this situation. As much as it makes my musical life more difficult, the "louder is better" mantra usually holds true live, especially to a metal crowd, so I can see where my guitarists are coming from even if it grinds my gears sometimes. For the sake of argument, let’s just take that situation as a given.) In cases like that, I HAVE to hit hard, every stroke, or else the sound gets lost. It is very, very, very difficult to get enough volume to cut through that acoustically, and I have to put forth more physical effort to make it work. I could easily back off, put in less physical effort, and get lost in the mix. It also takes a good deal of muscle control to play at “maximum” volume and keep the timbre of the drum consistent. What I’m saying is that playing loud, fast, consistent, and managing to keep a solid groove all at the same time is pretty fucking difficult. Removing any of those variables makes it less challenging. I see grind / death / whatever bands all the time where the blasts start flying and the volume drops to an inaudible level. It is just a huge pet peeve of mine. My feeling is that if the audience can't hear you, it really doesn't matter what you're playing. Sure, a sound guy can fuck that up, but that's essentially out of my control. I prefer to focus on what I have control over, which is the tonal quality of the drums and my playing. The stamina and dexterity required to play THAT loud and THAT fast is pretty extreme, and its much more difficult to pull that off than playing at equal speed at a reduced volume. When I first started playing out w/Hivesmasher, this was a real issue for me. I felt like I could either play the tunes correctly and get lost in the wall of sound, or I could bash the fuck out of everything, play sloppy, and hope the audience didn’t realize. (This was usually the option if whisky was involved.) Through a lot of hard work, I've come a lot closer to what I consider the ideal for that style of music—loud, groovy, and consistent. Please don't take this as me saying my playing is perfect or anything like that--its far from it. I've still got a lot of work to do. Regardless, while I wouldn’t debate that it is more difficult to play at that speed at an extremely low dynamic level, until we start seeing more metal acts playing acoustic gigs, I don’t really find that relevant to this discussion. Most people want loud when they go to see heavy music. From what I've seen out and about, I get the impression that often when triggers are used, they're used to help keep the volume level up while the power behind the stroke goes down, or to keep the timbre of the sound constant, independent of how the instrument is stricken. I don't particularly care to hear the same drum sample over and over again in a live performance (or the same 3, 6, 12, whatever drum samples over and over again, if that's how many dynamics steps you have) so I’d rather make sure my stuff sounds good and do my damndest to play loud enough to be heard. FWIW, I'm not talking about the quality of the sample itself, or the quality of the triggers--I'm just not a fan of samples in metal. Chalk it up to artistic differences I guess, but I (usually) like my heavy music to be raw and real. We could go on about this for years…so to sum this up: The way I'm seeing it, if you WANT an infinite ability to express music through dynamics, triggers/samples by their very nature limit your ability to do so by diving the continuum of dynamics into discrete steps. If you want consistent timbre and/or volume level, independent of the velocity used to strike the drum (depending on your settings), triggers will allow you achieve that. What you do with it from there is up to the individual, and your personal artistic preferences. Am I missing something here? |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:30pm - arktouros ""] ArrowHeadNLI said:Whoa, wait - I thought Morgan Agren (sp?) was a metal guy? hell no, he's up there with Bozzio and those freaks. |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:35pm - ouchdrummer ""] i think this friendly (lets keep it friendly people!) debate between Brow-Tim and Mr. Arrow is one that can't be answered. By either side. Debating the "Difficulty" of any two things, especially when relating to something like music, where the goals are all person opinion, is not possible. All drummers are going to want different things out of their playing, and will have totally different priorities, so what's difficult for one, because he's trying to reach objective A, will be simple for someone else, because he doesn't care about objective A, he cares about objective B. I could argue either side, because i understand both sides. But they're not really comparable, they're different mediums of art. So everyone please, before you state that using triggers is this, or playing acoustic is that, remember, it's an art form, and it's different for everyone. |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:37pm - arktouros ""] [QUOTE="brodown:1188944" You said also "you can hear different velocities on a real kit clear as a bell too." You must have misconstrued something, because that was exactly my point. A drum kit has an infinite ability for dynamic musical expression, and while using triggers/samples, be it on an ekit or an acoustic kit, you electronically regiment your dynamics into discrete steps. Regardless of how many steps that may be, you're forcefully limiting the dynamic abilities of your instrument, no? As for the matter of dynamics/velocity/what is "harder" to do...I think we're using the same words to say two different things. I will certainly not argue that playing fast and quiet is a really difficult thing to train your brain & muscles to do. Playing quiet is hard for all musicians, especially drummers. Playing quiet can be hard, playing slow can be hard, playing fast can be hard, playing loud can be hard. Playing any kind of music well is hard. When this all started, I was specifically talking about playing loud enough to be audible in various live situations, in which case I have to put forth maximum physical effort into the pedals to be heard. To elaborate a little more, I play in a grind band. At our gig last Saturday, my genius band members thought full stacks for everyone was a great idea. We were in a small venue, where there was a vocal PA, but no snare or kick mic. Nothing else was miced—all acoustic goodness. This is not an uncommon sonic situation for me. (I don't want to get into a debate over the stupidity of this situation. As much as it makes my musical life more difficult, the "louder is better" mantra usually holds true live, especially to a metal crowd, so I can see where my guitarists are coming from even if it grinds my gears sometimes. For the sake of argument, let’s just take that situation as a given.) In cases like that, I HAVE to hit hard, every stroke, or else the sound gets lost. It is very, very, very difficult to get enough volume to cut through that acoustically, and I have to put forth more physical effort to make it work. I could easily back off, put in less physical effort, and get lost in the mix. It also takes a good deal of muscle control to play at “maximum” volume and keep the timbre of the drum consistent. What I’m saying is that playing loud, fast, consistent, and managing to keep a solid groove all at the same time is pretty fucking difficult. Removing any of those variables makes it less challenging. I see grind / death / whatever bands all the time where the blasts start flying and the volume drops to an inaudible level. It is just a huge pet peeve of mine. My feeling is that if the audience can't hear you, it really doesn't matter what you're playing. Sure, a sound guy can fuck that up, but that's essentially out of my control. I prefer to focus on what I have control over, which is the tonal quality of the drums and my playing. The stamina and dexterity required to play THAT loud and THAT fast is pretty extreme, and its much more difficult to pull that off than playing at equal speed at a reduced volume. When I first started playing out w/Hivesmasher, this was a real issue for me. I felt like I could either play the tunes correctly and get lost in the wall of sound, or I could bash the fuck out of everything, play sloppy, and hope the audience didn’t realize. (This was usually the option if whisky was involved.) Through a lot of hard work, I've come a lot closer to what I consider the ideal for that style of music—loud, groovy, and consistent. Please don't take this as me saying my playing is perfect or anything like that--its far from it. I've still got a lot of work to do. Regardless, while I wouldn’t debate that it is more difficult to play at that speed at an extremely low dynamic level, until we start seeing more metal acts playing acoustic gigs, I don’t really find that relevant to this discussion. Most people want loud when they go to see heavy music. From what I've seen out and about, I get the impression that often when triggers are used, they're used to help keep the volume level up while the power behind the stroke goes down, or to keep the timbre of the sound constant, independent of how the instrument is stricken. I don't particularly care to hear the same drum sample over and over again in a live performance (or the same 3, 6, 12, whatever drum samples over and over again, if that's how many dynamics steps you have) so I’d rather make sure my stuff sounds good and do my damndest to play loud enough to be heard. FWIW, I'm not talking about the quality of the sample itself, or the quality of the triggers--I'm just not a fan of samples in metal. Chalk it up to artistic differences I guess, but I (usually) like my heavy music to be raw and real. We could go on about this for years…so to sum this up: The way I'm seeing it, if you WANT an infinite ability to express music through dynamics, triggers/samples by their very nature limit your ability to do so by diving the continuum of dynamics into discrete steps. If you want consistent timbre and/or volume level, independent of the velocity used to strike the drum (depending on your settings), triggers will allow you achieve that. What you do with it from there is up to the individual, and your personal artistic preferences. Am I missing something here? AFIC, no you're not. |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:40pm - ouchdrummer ""] I can't find a reference to what AFIC stands for... what is it? |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:43pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] arktouros said: ArrowHeadNLI said:Whoa, wait - I thought Morgan Agren (sp?) was a metal guy? hell no, he's up there with Bozzio and those freaks. There's more clips related to the one I posted - WOW I'm impressed. He's got some incredible chops. I always thought he was one of the Djenty guys, probably because he always gets mentioned in the same context as Tomas Haake on the toontrack site. Any bands I can check him out in? |
| __________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:43pm - brian_dc ""] I don't like triggers. I don't have a big write up...but the "raw and real" bit up there hits home. quick sidebar: why has everyone who has shown interest in playing drums in my band turned out to be a flake? |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:47pm - ouchdrummer ""] most drummers are flakes. That's a fact. My theory is that the act of banging on stuff and making really loud noises attracts a certain type of person.... usually low IQ, relatively aggressive, and almost always flakey. Obviously i don't mean all of them, but i think the fact that most fall into that category is un-debatable. |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:47pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] AFAIC - as far as i see As for brodown - your posts are so long, and so encompassing, I'm gonna try to steer it back on track by just concentrating on your 2 central points: 1) you say triggers cannot reproduce the dynamic range of real drums. I just linked MANY videos showing this to be untrue. 2) you say playing as hard as you can is difficult, and that triggers make it easier. I disagree. VELOCITY curves make it easier. If I turn mine off, guess what? I gotta hit as hard as I can TOO. You start every argument you make with an assumption, and I have difficulty arguing with you because the assumptions you base your arguments on are completely untrue. (Just as a singular example - you say the potential for acoustic drum velocity is infinite. Maybe, but your ability to produce consistently more than 120 different articulations is NOT. And even if it were, it's moot because the HUMAN EAR can't tell the difference.) Add in the length of your arguments, and I really think Jimbo is right - there's no winning here. For those interested in actually LEARNING more about triggers, and seeing HOW MUCH MORE they are capable of than most people are aware, look at some of my posts and the examples I gave. Otherwise, keep doing what you're doing, because you're a good drummer and when it comes to DRUMMING I'm in no position to tell you what to do. |
| _____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:49pm - ouchdrummer ""] YEAH!!! Friendly time! *hive fives* |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:51pm - arktouros ""] ouchdrummer said:i think this friendly (lets keep it friendly people!) debate between Brow-Tim and Mr. Arrow is one that can't be answered. By either side. Debating the "Difficulty" of any two things, especially when relating to something like music, where the goals are all person opinion, is not possible. All drummers are going to want different things out of their playing, and will have totally different priorities, so what's difficult for one, because he's trying to reach objective A, will be simple for someone else, because he doesn't care about objective A, he cares about objective B. I could argue either side, because i understand both sides. But they're not really comparable, they're different mediums of art. So everyone please, before you state that using triggers is this, or playing acoustic is that, remember, it's an art form, and it's different for everyone. right jimbo. using triggers is a means to an end to make your patterns audible and MAKE BOARCORPSE SOUND BETTER, which is different than covering up a bad drum sound or a bad drummer by slapping triggers on it. i think we can all agree with this. Trigger story: at Maryland Death Fest 2009, Mayhem played. As far as I can tell, Hellhammer uses a DM5 sampler for his entire kit, which is huge. During their setup, he would hit the drum samples, and they sounded fucking awful. I almost left because I knew it would bother me for their whole set. So they start playing, and soon I became entranced with what they were doing on stage. They sounded phenomenal for one thing, but the show experience was unreal. One of the greatest sets I've ever seen. So, would it have been better if Hellhammer used his REAL drum sound? Not for me to say, but as regular old compressed black metal band, the drum trigger application was more than adequate for them. |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:51pm - arilliusbm ""] bennyhillifier all hail Casiopea, the kings of Japanese Fusion. too bad the video quality sucks. |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:51pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] Now seriously, someone school me on Morgan Agren. I want more. |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 1:53pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] I gotta reiterate, too, that the alesis DM5 is over 10 years old, and IMO is 90% of the reason people hate triggers and samples. I think they sound like absolute shit. Of course, I'm a sample snob. I think the Roland modules sound like shit too. |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:00pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] Just to give some background on why I'm so passionate against this: I love drums. I bought an acoustic kit and spent a couple years practicing and learning on and off. I LOVED it. Ironically, Jimbo is one of the people who first got me into it. However, I had to move out of my rehearsal space, and I live in a condo. I can't make noise. So I had to pack up my kit, and I went NUTS wanting to play for years. I started researching e-drums, and this is where I found how much more triggers were capable of. Before that, I too thought that triggers were just another way to cover up the fact that Darren Ces.... uhh, I mean other drummers... barely hit their drums at all. Once I got my kit, I jumped on it and found out the hard way. I found it HARDER to play the triggers than acoustic drums. I won't go into the reasons again, because Jim and I have pointed them out already over and over. So when I hear people say triggers make it easier to play, or are cheating, I get PISSED because it LITERALLY took me a year to learn to do on triggers what I can do on an acoustic kit already. As for bpm and tempo, Jim, you're off a little. Time signature does not matter. In proper notation, tempo is written exactly as I said. Note value = BPM. So if the assumption is that we're playing at 200BPM, we would set the quarter at 200, even if you're playing in 19/16. I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you, but what I describe is PROPER musical notation, which I fucking HATED having to read in school. |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:06pm - arilliusbm ""] I'm no drummer, but I dabble with drumming here and there. I think it's probably the most fun thing to play in all of music. I can do basic beats and some off tempo stuff, but don't have a kit to practice every day on. Either way, I've played with both acoustic and electronic kits, and agree with Arrowhead above. I think having an acoustic kit and practicing on one for a while, then switching over to electronic is difficult. The sensitivity take a while to getting used to. I also don't think the drums have the same "bounce" so to say, so it's hard to get used to that as well. Kind of pointless for me to post in this thread, but I'd prefer an acoustic kit any day. UNLESS you can incorporate a triggered sound into your band, then I don't really care. Worst sounding triggered bass drum sound = As I Lay Dying's Frail Words Collapse. Don't ask my how I've heard that album, but it was the worst thing I've ever had to listen to. |
| ________________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:12pm - DestroyYouAlot ""] ITT: [img] |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:17pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] I'm gonna get skewered for this, but to me the worst trigger sound is Fear Factory. I HATE the sound of those kick drums. ESPECIALLY live. |
| __________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:22pm - brian_dc ""] basically, I'm impressed that drummers know words and are able to conduct conversations. |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:32pm - arktouros ""] arilliusbm said:I think having an acoustic kit and practicing on one for a while, then switching over to electronic is difficult. The sensitivity take a while to getting used to. I also don't think the drums have the same "bounce" so to say, so it's hard to get used to that as well. It is difficult and the sensitivity is a big issue. Using my example, starting out on a real crappy kit playing punk and metal without anyone to guide me for 12+ years, I never understood volume and sensitivity at all. Unlearning the caveman technique was the hardest plateau I faced. I think if I started out playing on a bad plastic e-kit, I would have understood the difference and would have been better prepared to play a real kit in the future. Especially with cheaper e-kits, where stick velocity doesn't really matter, learning the technique of "barely hitting the drum at all to stay quiet" goes a long way to getting true drumstick control and skill. The Roland V-drums (yamaha makes similar ones I think, there's a lot out there) go a LOOONG way to reproducing the feel of a kit and are great to learn on for one thing. |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:33pm - arilliusbm ""] brian_dc said:basically, I'm impressed that drummers know words and are able to conduct conversations. rofl copter |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:34pm - arktouros ""] ...like brodown said, I like working with wood + metal for percussing as an artistic choice. It's like a keyboard vs. grand piano in my eyes. No comparison. |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:36pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] arktouros said:Unlearning the caveman technique was the hardest plateau I faced. I think if I started out playing on a bad plastic e-kit, I would have understood the difference and would have been better prepared to play a real kit in the future. Nope, lol. I can attest, I'm playing an e-kit and I too have a big problem with the caveman thing. It's what I'm working on now, so if you've got any tips (I already stole the play above, not through quote) I'd be thankful. I notice the longer I play, and the more tired I get, I tend to start hitting even HARDER. So when I get to that point, I stop and take a break for an hour. |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:42pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] arktouros said:...like brodown said, I like working with wood + metal for percussing as an artistic choice. It's like a keyboard vs. grand piano in my eyes. No comparison. BUT, not be a dick - You actually need to spend time playing the Keyboard and Piano before you can out of hand say it's not a comparison. I like a BMX, it's all I ever had. You love your ten speed, it's all you've ever had. How can we compare them if we don't switch bikes for a while? So far, I believe I'm the only one here that actually uses and owns both. Using something I'm more familiar with, GUITARS, - I've played guitars for an hour that were GREAT, and then weeks later I find I fucking HATE it. Vice versa, I've played guitars at first that felt awful and I hated them, but after months they became my main player (my RW or Ibanez come to mind immediately). The point being, trying an e-drum or trigger briefly, especially when set up for someone ELSES playing, doesn't really give you a good example of what if can do. It may be an apples to oranges vibe, but I see too much "I like apples, so oranges are gay. Oranges are just for people that can't handle a real apple" here. Meanwhile, I like fruit, and find both to be full of flavor and fulfilling. |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:48pm - narkybark ""] I like turtles. |
| __________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:48pm - brian_dc ""] I've been ravaging pineapple like a goddamn animal, lately. |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:51pm - arktouros ""] Relaxing, posture, and regular breathing go hand-in-hand with "ABOVE not THROUGH"...none of this comes overnight, it takes years. Hitting harder when you're tired is probably from loss of concentration and the fact that you're NOT RELAXING. Sit up straight, loosen your stick grip, keep breathing. If you're muscles are physically tired, take a breather. STRETCH OFTEN, all the time, multiple times throughout the day, no matter what you're doing. Forearms, fingers, back, neck, ankles, anterior tibialis (front shin muscle), keep em loose. If you're upper arms or shoulders are tired you're doing it wrong. The only time I really get exhausted now, and my muscles just won't move, is when I'm playing with other musicians who have more volume than anybody has any business having, or at a live show where the drums just get buried and I can't hear myself, or when I'm just consciously playing hard for fun. Well I know a keyboard and a grand piano aren't even close to the same thing. That's just a bad analogy haha. |
| _________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:54pm - brodown ""] ArrowHeadNLI said:AFAIC - as far as i see 1) you say triggers cannot reproduce the dynamic range of real drums. I just linked MANY videos showing this to be untrue. 2) you say playing as hard as you can is difficult, and that triggers make it easier. I disagree. VELOCITY curves make it easier. If I turn mine off, guess what? I gotta hit as hard as I can TOO. I'm really not trying to be a contrarian here...but now I'm thinking maybe I am I missing something. Can a crescendo be performed on an electronic drum kit, or a triggered acoustic drum kit, in the same manner as an acoustic instrument? In my technical understanding, it cannot, but if I'm missing something, I wanna know! I also should clarify what I mean by "dynamic range" in that context. I know that the overall signal level range can be matched (whether that's in acoustic power, voltage, or whatever.) What I'm aiming at is the difference between a continuously variable instrument and a discrete set of different intensity samples. It's the difference of ramps vs. steps. As for your 2nd point...I'm not really sure what you're getting at there. Why use the triggers if not for that advantage? |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 2:55pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] brian_dc said:I've been ravaging pineapple like a goddamn animal, lately. HAHA, ditto. Must be in season, because the one's I'm getting are so fucking good. The poop, however, is quite painful. |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 3:00pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] 1) yes, a crescendo can be done on a trigger. However, that's one of those things where you'll get better results out of better gear. For example, my alesis surge cymbals don't do it so well. But the Roland cymbals do it VERY well. Probably why those fuckers charge $300 a piece. 2) "why use your trigger if not for that adavantage" - as I started out explaining, to control your SOUND from venue to venue. Not just dynamics, but tone as well. as for steps vs ramps, in drumming there are very few examples where initial attack and the sustained sound will vary, so they BOTH will work in steps. However, there is ONE example I think applies to what you say there - you know in zeppelin how bonham would hit the drum with one stick while pressing down and varying the sound with the other stick? That's one of the things you'd never be able to do with a trigger. |
| ______________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 3:05pm - ArrowHeadNLI ""] Also, the other reason for using triggers for ME is for studio/home use. Even if I COULD play my acoustic drums here, I can get more/better sounds out of my triggers. For example, I just jammed along to Killswitch Engage (hate the band, but I can at least play the parts) using a Sonor kit with a brass pearl snare, no bleed or ambience, with velocity bumped to max for even-ness (which is what you seem to hate), and a plastic beater. Then, I jammed some Triumph classic rock stuff with a Fibes kit, felt beater, and a Ludwig acrylic snare, with completely different cymbals, with a normal velocity curve. Takes me two seconds to switch from one to the other. And the sounds are RIGHT on the money. My playing, on the other hand.... |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 28,2011 3:09pm - arktouros ""] arrowhead check out agren's website http://www.morganagren.com/bio.html he's playing on water, this thread is invalid. bennyhillifier |