[Book] Born to Run[views:3518][posts:45]_____________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 9:25am - the_reverend ""] http://www.amazon.com/Born-Run-Hidden-Superathletes-Greatest/dp/0307266303 |
| ___________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 9:31am - arilliusbm ""] Way to incorporate a book tag. |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 9:33am - martins ""] I do not agree with what McDougall supposes to be true. |
| _____________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 9:34am - the_reverend ""] I believe in 1/2 the things that aril says. |
| _____________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 9:35am - the_reverend ""] martins said:I do not agree with what McDougall supposes to be true.Oh, you finished the book? how was it? I'm on page 50-ish. I sort of stopped so I could read state of decay. |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 9:36am - martins ""] Yeah, hated every fucking word of it. |
| _____________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 9:41am - the_reverend ""] really. does he keep the same antagonist through the whole thing? |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 9:53am - martins ""] No. It wasn't about his views. His writing style irked me. |
| _____________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 9:57am - the_reverend ""] the first pages I read haven't found their flow yet so me will see. I just watched that video on amazon and i don't like his face for one thing |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 9:58am - martins ""] Although, I don't believe that humans as a species were meant to run long distances or persistence hunt. If a person likes to run for sport or for themselves, be my guest. |
| ______________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 10:37am - the_reverend ""] I'm going to run and hunt carrots. When 70 year olds can run 100 miles, they are doing something right. |
| _________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 10:39am - martins ""] And do they look healthy and happy? |
| ______________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 10:42am - the_reverend ""] they did in text form. |
| _________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 10:44am - martins ""] Old people QQ |
| _________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 10:45am - Doomkid ""] Persistence hunting may have taken a different form with humans. Corral and drive hunting have been pretty popular in stone age peoples that live in open terrain. Perhaps on the African savanna pre-horse domestication the herd animals were driven by humans that would have to run 5, 10 miles at a time. |
| _________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 10:55am - martins ""] Yes but you have to consider what they were doing most of their time. With the exception of the Tarahumara, most tribal/paleolithic people were not running most of the time. Yes they had the energy and endurance to do it but, most of the time, they were walking or moving very slowly. Sure, it's conjecture but why would anyone who regularly had environmental pressures around them do anything taxing when they didn't have to. |
| _________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:00am - Doomkid ""] I agree that it is conjecture, but its also feasible. Sub-Saharan Africa was not exactly a harsh environment a few hundred thousand years ago(as far as we know of course). |
| _________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:03am - martins ""] Wait, was NOT harsh? |
| ___________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:12am - arktouros ""] martins said:Although, I don't believe that humans as a species were meant to run long distances or persistence hunt. If a person likes to run for sport or for themselves, be my guest. No...humans have the best endurance in the animal kingdom. Early hunters would need to harass and tire out their prey with constant chasing, projectiles etc. because they couldn't match them with bursts of speed or natural defenses (horns, claws..). Humans are the only species that can continuously run at marathon paces without rest or nourishment. Animals like cheetahs and even whales need to rest every so often across long distances because their muscles essentially shut down. Long distances and persistant hunting is what made us human...is there a reason you don't believe this martins? edit - i'm not talking about cultured tribes that used languages, i'm talking about early on the evolutionary timeline. |
| _______________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:12am - Pires ""] [img] i thought this thread was going to have Boss appreesh. FAIL. |
| _________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:20am - martins ""] arktouros said: martins said:Although, I don't believe that humans as a species were meant to run long distances or persistence hunt. If a person likes to run for sport or for themselves, be my guest. No...humans have the best endurance in the animal kingdom. Early hunters would need to harass and tire out their prey with constant chasing, projectiles etc. because they couldn't match them with bursts of speed or natural defenses (horns, claws..). Humans are the only species that can continuously run at marathon paces without rest or nourishment. Animals like cheetahs and even whales need to rest every so often across long distances because their muscles essentially shut down. Long distances and persistant hunting is what made us human...is there a reason you don't believe this martins? Because how do you support long distance running? Muscle glycogen. What do you turn to when you run out of muscle glycogen? Liver glycogen. There goes all your (sugar-based) fuel. Your body starts craving carbs, a commodity in paleolithic times. Fruits were seasonal, vegetables weren't gathered or eaten in modern quantities, and grains were never EVER consumed pre-agriculture. The body does have two mechanisms to make up for this called Ketosis and GlucoNeoGenesis (GNG). Ketosis is a state in which the brain and liver use ketone bodies instead of glucose for fuel. Ketone bodies are made directly from fat stores. GNG is when the body makes glucose from protein. GNG can happen in states of starvation and the protein will come from the muscles or it can happen when excess dietary protein is ingested in the presence of depleted glycogen stores. Basically, what I'm saying that depleting glycogen stores triggers a state similar to starvation that the body does not like being in. While Ketosis isn't a bad thing (it's actually a natural cure for epilepsy), GNG can cause muscle depletion which is something a paleolithic man would not want happening. He wouldn't be aware of these processes but millions of years of trial and error can tell you a thing or two. |
| ____________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:21am - arilliusbm ""] Canines have the best endurance. |
| ______________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:23am - the_reverend ""] I just watched 10,000BC the other week and I think that martins is wrong. |
| ___________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:30am - arktouros ""] our body mass to endurance ratio is better than canines but...yeah i suppose canines can run greater distances easier. and martins i don't pretend to much of anything about body chemistry, but i just wanted to disagree about humans not being meant to run or hunt persistently. obviously the mechanisms are there, if survival is at stake, most bodies can run as long as they have to, most animals can't say that. |
| _________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:31am - martins ""] Fight or flight response, sure. I definitely think that humans can run long distances when they absolutely need to. In fact, I believe that it's probably a good natural stressor every once in a while. The best training for long distance running is short intense 100% heart rate sprints. Or so, I've heard. Fucking Lance Armstrong practices using kettlebell. |
| ______________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:32am - the_reverend ""] I disagree [img] exhibit 1:the butter ball. |
| ____________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:32am - arilliusbm ""] lol, 10 grade essay with no sources cited. See me after class, Martins. |
| _________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:35am - martins ""] You want sources? Look up ketosis and GNG. Yeah I made up body chemistry. Class now, I'll argue some more later. |
| _________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:36am - martins ""] the_reverend said:I disagree [img] exhibit 1:the butter ball. Called insulin resistance. First step to diabetes. Look it up. You can be skinny and also be insulin resistance. All carbs except fructose get converted to glucose which insulin acts directly upon. |
| ___________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:49am - arktouros ""] nah, i ran track for 6 years....sprinting is a totally different movement than long distance. different muscle memory, posture, ankle movement...everything. our coach would not let long distance runners do sprinting exercises, one reason being sprinting is more susceptible to all types of injuries/hyperextensions/etc (he coached quite a few all-state runners and jumpers). the long distance runners would run long distances, and the sprinters would sprint. long distance running is very cerebral. the mental preparation alone would make distance training essential. |
| ______________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 11:53am - the_reverend ""] LOL, ketosis and GNG was invented in 2002 by starburst's parent company Mars Inc. |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 1:29pm - martins ""] News to me, rev? Ark, I know of a few long distance runners that practice using sprinting exercises. |
| ___________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 1:36pm - arilliusbm ""] northeastern's track team = LOL |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 2:34pm - Doomkid ""] I think the argument here is whether humans' long distance running abilities are a function of evolution or merely a sidebar benefit. Unfortunately proving it either way would be a bitch and a half given how sparse the evidence is. And Martins, there is evidence of wild grains being consumed by pre-agrarian societies and by hunter-gatherer groups that encouraged certain flora to grow but didn't really 'farm'. But you're right about the environment for early humans, I was thinking back to the 5-8 MYA time range for hominids. |
| __________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 2:35pm - LPCustom ""] Pires wins - everyone else loses. Album = masterpiece. |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 2:55pm - martins ""] Doomkid said:I think the argument here is whether humans' long distance running abilities are a function of evolution or merely a sidebar benefit. Unfortunately proving it either way would be a bitch and a half given how sparse the evidence is. And Martins, there is evidence of wild grains being consumed by pre-agrarian societies and by hunter-gatherer groups that encouraged certain flora to grow but didn't really 'farm'. But you're right about the environment for early humans, I was thinking back to the 5-8 MYA time range for hominids. If you compared paleolithic skeletons to neolithic ones, you will see that we are now shorter, have a lower bone density, and have worse teeth. Humans have not evolved to eat grass seeds (grains). They don't want to be eaten anyway. |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 2:59pm - martins ""] http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-car...iculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/ |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 3:05pm - Doomkid ""] I'm defintiely not saying that eating them ins such quantities is a good thing, I was merely pointing out that in the diverse hunter-gatherer diet the wild precursors to wheat, rice and such were consumed. It was when the grains became the staple of the diet instead of a supplement that the changes would have started. |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 3:11pm - martins ""] Exactly. A great experiment would be to go grain free(including beer) for a month and see how you feel. I know I feel great. Little things that used to bother me don't anymore. |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 3:12pm - Doomkid ""] So you've cut out beer also? In my consideration of a grain-reduced diet I was torn about this. Though I wouldn't be too sad if I had to survive drinking whiskey and G+Ts for the rest of my life. |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 3:15pm - martins ""] I feel that once your body is accustomed being gluten free, a good beer every once in a while won't kill you. I just don't feel the need to drink anyway. Distilled liquor is the way to go. |
| ______________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 5:50pm - Bradness nli ""] Nutrition in my Metal Forum? It's more likely than you think |
| ___________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 5:56pm - arilliusbm ""] Thanks to the Internet, everyone is an expert on everything! |
| ________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 6:20pm - martins ""] Never claimed to be an expert. I said what I know. Read it or don't. |
| _____________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 8:18pm - the_reverend ""] lmgtfy |
| ___________________________________ [Feb 8,2010 8:20pm - ArilliusBM ""] General statement. |